by Jeffrey van Zuiden
What would seem like a very complicated topic is in fact very simple. It can be broken down into two broad reasons.
- Catholics lead them to believe this. As a Protestant, when I would meet a Catholic, if I asked them if they were Christian most would respond “No, I’m Catholic.” or “I’m Catholic.” You’ve all heard this many times, in some variation and know what I’m talking about. It’s our own ignorance on our faith that compels others into believing this. Ask yourself: How you identify yourself to others?
- Many Protestant denominations teach this. Again, as a Protestant in a Calvinist Reformed tradition, we were educated that Catholics were barely, if at all, Christian. It was literally in our text-book that Catholics were essentially a Pagan cult, all going to Hell. Many other denominations teach this as well. Now, it’s true that not all teach this, but there are more than enough who do to make my point.
So why do we Catholics do what we do? In our defense, we’ve called ourselves this going back to the end of the 1st century. However, it’s in our ignorance of how we are perceived today that forms the core of the problem. To be taken serious be many Protestants, we must first bridge this gap of how they view us.
An example of Protestant propaganda, this shows four men killing the Pope and two other men man — one labeled “hypocrisy” and the other named “greed” — with stones made from the Gospels. This is a false charge, but any rock will do to beat the Church, to paraphrase Chesterton.
To understand why Protestants teach what they do, we must first go back in time to the Protestant Reformation. During that time, there was a lot of political propaganda perpetuated by the Protestant leaders and their political supporters. Among that propaganda, is an idea that lasts to this day. It can be summed-up nice and easy: “The Catholic Church has absorbed all kinds of non-apostolic traditions and as such is no longer Christian.”
As a Catholic, you can do two things to help fix this.
- Profess your faith properly. When asked if I’m a Christian, I respond with, “Yes, I’m a Catholic Christian.” Always add in that “Christian” part for emphasis. This is very important. Knowing we are misunderstood, change how you represent yourself. You will be shocked at how many doors this opens to evangelizing! I could write a book on how many fruitful conversations this has started.
- Defend your faith. With a charitable heart, defend the Church. For example, say something like this: “The Catholic Church is Christian because it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. For the first thousand years of Christianity, our Church was it, and even after the Great Schism of 1054 all Christians celebrated the faith the way we still do — until the time of Luther.” And so on.
Remember, you are a Catholic Christian!
May God Bless You.
Very well said. Thank you.
Thank u so much
I don’t feel is necessary to add Christian. There are about 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide and about 200 denominations in the USA alone. All are Christian and saying Christian isn’t necessary. Like an Italian doesn’t necessarily say I’m Italian, they might say I’m Roman, I’m Venetian, Neapolitan, Sicilian, etc.. it’s automatical understood that they’re Italian and certainly saying that they’re European is overkill.
To not know that Catholics are Christians is ignorance when in fact it was the first Christian church. Catholics are quite welcome to just say Catholic just as Episcopalians are welcomed to say Episcopalian and so on.
It seems that this argument is more a general attack on Catholics. Quackers only say Quacker when referring to themselves. Does this make everyone upset? Should they say Quacker Christian?
Actually, Constantine was the first pope of the Catholic Church, he is the one that pushed Trinity through when they voted on it and was also responsible for many of there beliefs
read revelation chapter 17 find out that for 1900 years people have said the catholic church will bring the antichrist and know you are doing sun worship mixed with dagon worship mixed with ever apostate lie ever there following the antichrist religion in the world by merging with all religions and saying all good people go to heaven JESUS said I did not come to bring peace but a sword witch refers to his word and obviously you don’t know it at all love to all my brothers and sisters in Christ JESUS and yes there are saved people who don’t even go to church and saved people in catholic church as well but the catholic church is behind 65 million murders in 1500 years not the best thing to boast about
Your history is a bit off (and you may want to think twice about conceding that the Catholic Church has existed for 1900 years — it has, obviously, but given that some of the apostles were still alive 1900 years ago and some of the New Testament was not even written by then, that’s a pretty strong endorsement of the Catholic Church…). FYI, we don’t worship the sun, and I don’t know what a “dagon” is but we don’t worship that either. The Catholic Church does not, and has never, taught that “all good people go to heaven.” It is a bit hard to follow your thinking because your post is more of a stream of consciousness than a rational argument, but I can assure you that the Catholic Church is not behind “65 million murders.” That claim is perhaps the most absurd anti-catholic bigoted slander I have ever read. My advice: Open your Bible, learn about God, come to a Catholic Church and see how Biblical our liturgy is. Open yourself up to the grace of the Holy Spirit, without which faith is impossible. Pray. Stop slandering Christians. Pray again. God wants to be in your life.
Thank you for those informed and, in my opinion, actually kind final comments.
I am a Christian Catholic but live in the “Bible Belt” of Canada: the Fraser Valley of British Columbia. As you mentioned, most Protestants here don’t even believe that Catolics are Christians. I do really really do love my Prorestant friends and have prayed together with them many times. They will say about me to others, “She is Catholic BUT she is saved.” In a way it’s too bad that they have to really get to know me over a period of some time before they can say that I am a Christian and have a deep commitment to my Lord, Jesus Christ.
But then why not?
The birth of the Catholic Church was penticost.
*pentecost. I don’t disagree, but my point was that it is really damning for a protestant critic of the Catholic Church to concede that the Catholic Church is at least 1900 years old, a time when not all of the apostles had even died yet and before a few books of the New Testament had been written. If the Catholic Church is at least 1900 years old (and it is, of course), then there can be no coherent case for protestantism.
There are many coherent arguments from Protestants. Just saying. The question is, why can’t you understand them?
After all the dialog we’ve had, do you really think I don’t *understand* protestant arguments? That’s rather insulting, frankly.
I didn’t say that there was no coherent argument for protestantantism — only that there is no coherent argument for protestantism *IF* you grant that the Catholic Church has been around for at least 1900 years. Protestant arguments tend to posit that the Catholic Church didn’t come into existence until later, and that the apostolic church was more similar to modern protestantism than Catholicism. I don’t think the historical evidence shows that, but I respect that position because at least it is coherent.
Thanks for clarifying your point. No insult intended. I appreciate your dialog.
Take a deep breath and try again. Seriously, and don’t take this the wrong way, but you sound as if you are possessed. I really hope you don’t communicate like this (i.e., by issuing massive run-on sentence rants filled with conspiracy theories and other incoherent rambling) when you are face-to-face.
To suggest that I worship the sun or that I worship dragons is so facially absurd that I really can’t take you seriously. You are joking, right? No one could possibly believe something so absurd, right? My faith in humanity means I have to assume that you are just trying to satirize anti-Catholic insanity by constructing a caricature of poor writing, incoherent thinking, and unjustified rage. If not, you really should inform yourself about Catholicism from a *Catholic source*. Don’t take the word of some other psychotic anti-Catholic sectarian. Go directly to Catholic sources and you will see that we are as Christian as they come. We don’t worshop dragons, or the sun, or anything but the One Triune God.
Either you take seriously Jesus’s promise in Matthew 16:18 that the Church would never fall into apostasy, or you don’t. If you don’t believe what the Bible teaches, I’m afraid we don’t share enough first principles to continue any sort of meaningful dialogue. But I’ll pray for you (though not to the sun or to any dragons).
I think that person meant “pagan”‘ but he/she is still wrong!
You still believe the Protestant lies.
eddo. the mystery of the faith is beyond how ever you may feel about certain human beings. If you believe in Christ you must believe in his word. It is clearly written to Peter he gave the keys to Heaven, there is a lot more said and the Apostles are guided by the Holy Spirit. So for anyone to truly understand who Christ is if not blessed with faith right away, you must start from the being.
As a proud Catholic Christian, I will say a prayer for you,
The thing is that Protestants leave out many books taht are suppost to be in the bible …so that they don’t contradict there faith, that’s why as a Catholic,Catholics know the truth
Christ also said he did not come to bring condemnation but salvation
You say ‘there are saved people who don’t even go to church’. But this is Modernism, eddo, which your Pope Pius X described as ‘the synthesis of all evils’. No one before Vatican II would have said such a thing from within the faithful.
Unchurched people who conform to the world and the world’s idols are not saved.
It is an insult to the passion and death of Jesus Christ to utter such a thing.
It is blasphemy.
Since the misguided Second Vatican Council, two of your popes (Paul VI and John Paul II) embraced the neo-Hindu antichrist Sri Chinmoy Ghose.
Paul said to Ghose ‘We will meet in heaven’ and John Paul said to Ghose ‘I bless your divine work.’
This in spite of the fact that Ghose denied the absolute deity of Jesus Christ, worshipped himself by describing himself a divine son of God, and preached reincarnation.
I recognize the sad truth of Chesterton’s memorable remark, ‘Any rock will do to beat the church.’ Catholics do have to put up with a great deal of abuse and bigotry.
To learn about real Protestant theology go online to the Protestant Truth Society.
Read the online essay by Arthur W Pink, ‘Another Gospel’.
Listen to the online preaching of John MacArthur, John Piper, Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones and A.W. Pink’s four-part sermon The Nature of Apostasy on YouTube.
Read the Puritans such as John Owen, Richard Sibbes, Richard Baxter and James Flavel.
The Devil preaches a counterfeit gospel of salvation by works and the brotherhood of men.
It is Satan who preaches ‘Peace, peace,’ as the Protestant minister Robert Murray McCheyne said in one of his sermons. (See A Basketful of Blessings by Robert Murray McCheyne.)
I am a Catholic and I am Christian as we all are. to you saying the crazy nonsense is how your church or pastor taught you. That is being the anti Christ to lie and decieve. Never worshipped the sun, where did you learn this garbage at nor do we worship popes. The Catholic church via the Crusades and Spanish spread Christianity or you would be living in mostly Muslims or Jewish world. Check history real history and not some pastors rants. I have been in many other churches CHristian and not and the closest non Christian religin to the Catholic church is Buddhism. They do good deeds for others and believe in the same God. But sorry no dragons. That one is a some far flung drunk pastor’s idea.. Hint go read the bible. We pracitce good deeds to others modesty being good praying for others souls and pains. To give when we can not forced to but encouraged and ask for forgiveness and to keep and open mind.
How do you get 65 million murders? Was it murder or killing? There’s a difference. Someone tries to hurt me and I kill them, that’s just a death. Someone tries to Rob me and I kill them, it’s on themselves, no murder involved.
Where if it weren’t for the Catholic Church, there wouldn’t have been anything to have a reformation from!
Where there’s the Roman Catholic, then there’s the Eastern Orthodox.
Around 1535 the King of England appointed hisself as pope of the church which came the Anglican Church, which out came the Episcopal church, which came the Congregationalist. Then Methodist, Baptist came out of this lineage.
Then Martin Luther came, which I’m not aware of any churches breaking off from it.
Now not all priest serve the parishioners of a church. They’re supposed to represent the church. Which some don’t do.
We are in an age and have been in an age of prophecy that’s apparently strung out over many more years than what one would think just from biblical narratives.
Which some are so religious, they forgot how to be human which is a terrible vice. Judging others and not showing any grace to speak of. Where we’re supposed to become like God, called Theosis. Few know anything about God except what they have in their imagination. But look at Galatians 5:24 in and you’ll see the true image of God. But how many are going to take their precious time and look it up?
Really???? You need to READ the BIBLE!!! Jesus Christ said “Upon this rock I build my church “. The rock Jesus Christ referred to was Peter. Peter was the first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church. LOOK it up!!! Also, good luck in life! Your spelling, and vocabulary are extremely poor. Please look at continuing your education, and exploring the Bible. Check your facts!!!
Acts 11:26 says where God’s disciples were first called Christians,not Catholics..
Acts 11:26- says the first disciples were Christians
The freaking vatican has a giant serpent head concert hall as well as an extremely demonic “art” sculptire right behind it. This on top of the very evil jeauit oath and popes who support socialism, fascism, and now even abortion. Yeaaahhh, Catholic masters are Satans property wether or not you acknowledge it.
There are some things you have said I perfectly agree with! Yes, we do worship the Son (Son of God, Jesus Christ) and the Catholic Church will bring the anti-Christ because our prayers and petitions will anger Satan and He will attack us in any way He can. That means all Christians, but especially Catholics, will be under stronger and stronger attack the closer we get to the end of the world. You do know, I hope, that Jesus Christ told His own disciples that there were already many anti-Christs in the world?
As far as mixing with other religions, I don’t know what you are referring to. The Catholic Church still holds steady on the Scriptural requirements of no divorce and remarriage, no fornication or adultery, no thievery, no artificial birth control or abortion, and no grudge-keeping, We Christians may not always show it, but we do believe in Christ’s command to love one another as He has loved us. Sinners in the Church? You betcha! Christ said He came for the sick, not for the righteous (self-righteous, that is). The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners and His mercy has taken me from being a sinner in critical condition to finding myself in love with this Savior who is working on healing this unworthy woman.
For your own knowledge, please find out what we really teach and what our real history is. Type in your browser ‘Youtube and the Coming Home Network’ to find many one-hour interviews on why people are coming into the Catholic Church or returning to it in great numbers. Baptists, Mormons, Muslims, atheists, Anglicans, Methodists, Fundamentalists, etc. They are looking for the truth and nothing but the truth and they are finding it in the Catholic Church. Go figure! . I still do not understand how I, a sinner in great need of God’s grace, have been so privileged to be called back into the Church He Himself founded. She looks like a dilapidated, old, spider-filled building from the outside, but from the inside she is a radiantly beautiful temple. I do so hope you check us out. Anyone who has a true desire for truth and for a closer relationship with Christ can satisfy those longings within the Catholic Church.
Protestantism is the worship of one’s own opinions, with zero grounding in what the historical churches believed for 1500+ years.
Brother eddo, may the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth…to one true, holy, Catholic, and apostolic faith founded by Jesus more than 2,000 years ago. Read, and study the history of the Church IN DEPTH. Many Protestant leaders, and scholars who are well versed in the scripture are converting to Catholicism once they learn the fullness of truth, and the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church. God bless!
The prophesy about the pope being the antichrist has been debunked, the 666 was the numerology from the three tiers of one of the popes, crowns. He wasn’t the anti Christian either . I believe you are a bit of a windage & a bit uneducated. The church has not murdered anyone, stupid people in the church have done so, the church is perfect, people are flawed. We must pray for them and believe in God. I’ll pray for you.
Hello everyone. I have read many questions here from Protestants about their issues on the Catholic faith. For those of you who would like to know a deeper understanding of the Catholic church and what they actually believe, follow my wife and I in our blog. We start with our story as ministers and leaders in the Wesleyan Church and our journey into Catholicism. We go are going through each of the doctrines and teachings of the Catholic one step at a time. We would love to have you join our blog and read for yourself what we have learned. Thanks
How can I find your blog?
great Catholic historian and theologian, Peter DeRosa:
“We already noted that not a single Father can find any hint of a Petrine office in the great biblical texts that refer to Peter. Papal supremacy and infallibility, so central to the Catholic church today, are simply not mentioned. Not a single creed, nor confession of faith, nor catechism, nor passage in patristic writings contains one syllable about the pope, still less about faith and doctrine being derived from him” (Vicars of Christ, DeRosa, 206).
Therefore, by the admission of a Roman Catholic theologian, early Catholic Fathers never claimed Peter was the “Rock” upon which Jesus established His Church! Since Catholics lay such stress upon Church Tradition, why are they ignoring this most important Church Tradition? It seems as though they are terribly selective as to which Church Tradition upon which they are going to build their modern Church!
Paul reiterates in his epistle to the Corinthians that Jesus is the “Rock”. (1 Cor.10:4)
Origen
“[i]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens” (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter [Kefa, or Rock, in the original text], because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they would wish to build upon what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which My teaching flows, you are the chief of My disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in My institution, and so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of the kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures.”
John Chrysostom
He saith to him, “Feed my sheep”. Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the head of the choir. For this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now that his denial had been purged away. He entrusts him with the rule [prostasia] over the brethren. . . . If anyone should say “Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?”, I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that see but of the whole world. [St. John Chrysostom, Homily 88 on John, 1. Cf. Origen, “In Ep. ad Rom.”, 5:10; Ephraem Syrus “Hymn. in B. Petr.” in “Bibl. Orient. Assemani”, 1:95; Leo I, “Serm. iv de natal.”, 2].
“God allowed [Peter] to fall, because he meant to make him ruler of the whole world, that remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future”
Eucherius, Bishop of Lyons (ca. 440)
“First He committed to him [Peter] the lambs, then the sheep; because H constituted him not only shepherd, but the shepherd of shepherds. Therefore, Peter feeds the lambs, he feeds also the sheep; he feeds the offspring, he feeds also the mothers; he rules both subjects and prelates. He is the shepherd, therefore, of all, because, besides lambs and sheep, there is nothing in the Church.” (Serm. De Natal. SS. Apost. Petri et Pauli) in Charles F.B. Allnatt, ed., Cathedra Petri – The Titles and Prerogatives of St. Peter, (London: Burns & Oates, 1879), 45-46.
In response to Joshua Lambert who could find no Church Father references to Peter’s Primacy.
In Paul’s letter to Timothy, we learn that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth. and our Lord promised that that the Spirit of truth would lead us to all truth. Also, Jesus founded one Church.. one that is meant to be united.
Irenaeus of Lyons
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [189 AD]).
Could you send a link to your blog?
Yes, where can I find your blog? I am a Catholic Christian and sometimes find myself bombarded by protestants that Catholics are not really Christians, we are a cult, why is the church so rich, on and on.
Robert and Ruvilyn, how do I find your blog
This is quite sad to read. Having grown up in the Catholic church from birth, third generation, I am well aware of Catholic dogma, and liturgy and how they combine many wonderful truths with lies. Those lies kept me and many others from knowing Christ personally, a requirement to stand before God at the Judgement seat.. I am so thankful to have finally heard the unadulterated gospel without the teachings of praying to Mary, without the teaching of penance which takes away from the wonder and awe that God, in Jesus Christ, would die for us to make complete atonement for our sin. If we are working to pay it off as I was taught each time I paid to light a candle, or knelt to one of the 400 saints,or recited a rosary, then Christ’s work on the cross is insufficient or of no effect as the apostle Paul says. – The real lie though is the fear generated by the catholic church with the threat of purgatory which has no mention in the Bible, but is in the apocrypha which was written after Malachi, and before John, in what is known as the intertestamental period where there was no prophecy from God. It is God’s Word that has authority, not mans. As the Scriptures say, let God be true, and every man a liar. This means that the doctrines from these books were not written by God, and are not therefore God’s Word, because God was clearly not speaking during that time. Christians know this because they have read their Bibles. Most catholics only read an abbreviated version, so they neither know the doctrines of the apostles, nor the clear message of salvation presented in the Scriptures from Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, etc. When I first read the book of John beginning to end, I wept. And then I wondered why this had been kept from us. My challenge to one who calls themselves a catholic christian is read the book of John, then the new testament, then the old testament, and learn about the sacrifices of the old testament. They were a picture before Christ came of the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. He came in the form of Jesus Christ, paid the sin debt we owed because each one of us has sinned (all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God), and therefore need a Savior which God in love provided in His Son. (God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ) To as many as received Him, who believed in His Name (Jesus Christ, Messiah; the One sent by God to make atonement for our Sin debt) to them He gave the right to become sons of God. I remember as a child being told that Noah was a mythical allegory by my priest. Now I see it as a powerful reminder of God’s judgement for those who reject Him, reject His Word, reject His salvation offered freely to those who repent, ie turn from their sinful trust in their half truths and legends, and trust in Jesus Christ to forgive them and present them holy and blameless before His throne. to the Only Wise God be all glory, honor, and majesty. His name is Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, Prince of Peace, Everlasting Father. I’m so thankful to finally KNOW Him, because when I stand before Him I will not have to fear Him saying, depart from me I never knew you. He says, my sheep hear my voice and I KNOW them, and they follow me, and a stranger’s voice they will not follow. My question to you is are you following His voice as recorded for us in the Scriptures, or traditions of men? Please be sure to check the Scriptures to find out.
Gala 2:8
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
This was written by Paul and it is the final word as to the fact Peter was a Apostle to the Jews and NOT the Gentiles as taught by the Catholics and it was Paul who went to preach to the Gentiles.
Robert, is your blog still going today? I am interested in learning more about Cathelocism.
Mary as a goddess is an idol…
I’m a follower of Christ Jesus I identify with no denominations. Jesus said follow me and I will make you fishers of men so we follow Christ Jesus not Mary nor the saints nor Denominations. The word says follow Christ Jesus NOT men.
Also if you were trying to prove your positioning as far as you following a denomination or the ritualism that you follow by the words of menYou are already building upon a sandy foundation that will not stand.
Also when reading the word of God Hass to be in context you cannot take the word of God out of context and put a stumbling block in front of a brother or sister. All things must be supported by the word of Almighty God.
Also no you CANNOT PRAY TO MARY TO BE HEARD OF GOD THIS IS NOT IN THE BIBLE- as it’s written there is only ONE NAME UNDER HEAVEN WHICH WE MUST CALL UPON TO BE SAVE JESUS CHRIST. also now being justified by the faith of Christ Jesus and having our prayers answer and sins forgiven because of his sacrifice and shed blood it’s absolutely unbiblical that we should ever think that Mary or the saints which are sinners as all men could intercede for your prayers. As written for ALL MEN HAVE SIN AND FELLEN SHORT.Mary was sinner also the saints but they were justified and saved through the faith Jesus Christ by the grace of almighty God the DID NOT SAVE THEIR SELF NOR DID THEY DESERVE GOD GRACE neither do any of us but God And is unfathomable love sent us the Savior Jesus Christ. Show me in the word where it says to pray the rosary or to transfer any sort of faith onto Mary any of the saints in any kind of fashion. The word is the dividing line of truth , not personal beliefs nor religious Ness that has been developed within the body of Christ because of disobedience of the gospel of Christ. Praying to Saint is like me dying and and you trying to pray through me to get into the father when God already told you that there’s only one mediator between you and the father and that’s Christ Jesus alone and there’s no other name under heaven which men must call upon to be saved. And also holding up Mary or anyone in the word of God as being more divine human beings and the rest of us also would conclude that God is a respecter of persons which he pointed out from the beginning of the gospels onto the end that he has no respecter of persons but loves all that love him. There’s no other way to the father except Christ Jesus as Written Jesus said I am the way I am the truth and I am the life NO man comes in to the father except by me. We trust in Jesus and him alone for he is the Christ and the son of the living God that came from God and died for all mankind that’s who so ever believes in him that is Christ Jesus shall not Parrish but have everlasting life. Your prayers that you pray to Mary and to other dead Saints are not heard of God you must pray through the son of God Jesus Christ who died for you. And what I speak is biblical . Denominations come from disobeying the Commandments of God well you might ask me what why do you say this David? I tell you Surely God commanded us he said study the Scriptures diligently to show yourself approved a workmen needing not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. The word of God is the dividing line and if we follow anything that does not come from the word of God it’s a lie. And if we confess our sins to a pope or pastor and do not confess them ourselfs to the Father through Christ Jesus we will never be forgiven. Denominations are not of God what did Paul say he said in the word when he came on to a town he said unto the congregation? He said some of you say I’m a Paul and some of you say you’re of appolos or of Cephas and some of you Christ Jesus and then Paul responded and said who is Paul who is the aPallos but ministers that you heard of Christ through Paul Condemned denominations we are first in for most followers of Christ Jesus in whom all our hope faith and trust is in.Once again Jesus said follow me he did not say follow man he did not say follow the world he did not say follow denomination he said follow Christ Jesus and put your faith inJesus and confess your sins to the father to Christ Jesus and you shall be saved. I pray to God that all denominations will be over. I pray to God that we would all follow Christ and proclaim to be followers of Jesus Christ first and foremost before all and lining all things up with the word because if we are following anything that goes against the word of God we are not following God. I plead with all denominations to study The Scriptures and like the word says received a message from your pastors with joy but then studies the Scriptures diligently to find out whether those things you have been taught or true or not. God commanded us to rightly divide the word of truth well how do we divide the word the truth if we don’t know the word of truth? Isn’t this a huge reason that we proclaim to be followers of different denominations . Be not deceived the body of Christ as written is not divided that man has divided them by polluting the word of God which every man will give account on to the Lord and the day of reckoning curious I don’t know about any man in this comment section but God warned us sternly and said no man can add to or take away and then he goes even further in the last chapter of revelations and said if any man adds to this book I will add to him all the plagues that are written in this book an affair any man takes away from this book I will take away his part out of the book of life and this directly correlate with another verse that the Lord said the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom then how do we in the body of Christ not fear two pervert and change and add religiousness within the body of Christ. No amount of religiousness will save any man on the face of this earth Only through Christ Jesus alone. And that goes for every denomination whether it’s those that say they’re saved by grace and grace alone and they can live like hell and still be saved because they’ve excepted Christ as their Lord and Savior at one point in their life this is a lie we are saved by the grace of God through faith not of worthless any man shell Boast but as written faith demand action and as it’s written in the book of James faith without action is Dead you cannot just have faith and you cannot just have action you have to have both. When Jesus said follow him following is an action we have to take and that’s why it’s written deny yourself pick up your cross daily and follow me. And concerning the saved by grace and grace alone got bit of a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does that with your wicked man does none of his good deed that he has done within his life shall be remembered and he shall bear his judgment before God but if a wicked man turns from his wickedness and goes on to righteousness you shall be saved. And another portions of the word of God The Lord warns us and says that he could even blot our names out of the book of life. Or concerning the rapture which is on biblical this statement that I’m putting out is not just against Catholicism but it’s concerning every denomination that perverts the word of God for self gain and to appeal to immense flesh and thereby to try to obtain some kind of congregation and obtain money of the people of the congregation for selfish Ness no lie will ever abound or lead to the increase and the saving of men’s souls.The Pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine that men preach within the body of Christ shame on you. As the word says calls all men and says judge is this that no man put occasion of stumbling in front of his brother. Here’s a bunch of information condemning pre rapture doctrine. FOLLOW CHRIST JESUS.
THIS IS A WARNING TO THE CHURCH!! READ
PRETRIB RAPTURE IS A LIE! I SPEAK OUR OF LOVE DONT BE DECEIVED HOLD THESES THINGS BEFORE GOD AND LOOD INTO THE BIBLE OF WHAT I AM SAYING ALL THE SCRIPTURES ARE LISTED BELOW. False doctrine.
MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE GREAT FALLING AWAY!!!! THE TRIBULATION IS COMING! PUT YOUR FAITH IN JESUS! WE WILL BE HERE DURING THE TRIBULATION! AND GOD WILL GIVE US STRENGTH IN TIME OF TROUBLE. THEN AT THE END AT THE 7TH TRUMP JESUS WILL APPEAR IN THE CLOUDS AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST! THEN AFTER THE DEAD ARE RAISED WE WILL CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF A EYE!!! MAKE SURE THAT YOU PUT IT INSIDE OF EACH OF YOUR HEARTS TO BE FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH BECAUSE WE WILL BE PERSECUTED FOR THE NAME OF GOD BY THE ANTI christ AND THOSE WHO HAVE THROWN DOWN THERE FAITH WHEN PERSECUTION WAS ON THEM FOR THERE FAITH.
Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
1 Corinthians 15;52 >>
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST
DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST! WHICH STARTS AT THE 7th trump “7th year” and if the Lord tells us that they are first to rise and they rise according to God at the 7th trump there is NO PRETRIB RESURRECTION GOD DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT PRE OR MID ITS A LIE FROM FALSE DOCTRINE IN THE CHURCH!! reason with me our meat is to do the will of GOD and we can’t let our self be deceived by false doctrine in the church! ———->2 Timothy Chapter 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Mathew 24;10-13-2 Thessalonians 2;3 below Reference of us being SAINT
2 Corinthians 1;1
1 Corinthians 14;33
Colossians 1;2
Philippians 1;1
Ephesians 2;19
Ephesians 5;3
——> anti christ fights against the saints
Daniel 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the SAINTS , and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
THIS IS AFTER THE 3rd year at some point!!! We are here! No PRETRIB this is the last 3 years!3 woes!!!
Revelation 14:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow
JESUS EXPLAINS THAT THERE IS ONLY 2 RESURRECTIONS —>1 to life and 1 to damnation —->
John 5:29 King James Version (KJV)
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation
ALSO THE WORD OF GOD SAYS THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST AT THE LAST TRUMP (7th). ALSO THE WORD OF GOD SAYS THAT THE MYSTERY OF GOD IS FINISHED AT THE LAST TRUMP AS WRITTEN IN REVELATION 10:7.
Revelation 10:7
“But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
1 Corinthians 15;52 <—-7th trump 7TH YEAR!
In a moment in a moment in the twinkling of a eye AT THE LAST TRUMP for the trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ WILL RISE Incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST
So if we know the dead in Christ are Going to rise first and that they rise at the LAST TRUMP OF GOD Jesus SPOKE OF 2 Resurrections in John 5:29 as listed above 1 unto life and 1 unto damn nation. And all through out the tribulation we that keep the faith of Jesus are being killed and persecuted as listed below in revaluations 6:9-11 we are still being killed for the name of Jesus all throughout the tribulation.
Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
Daniel 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the SAINTS , and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces
Acts 14:22
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
I am very interested in reading your journey. Where do we go to find your blog? Please leave a crumb to find.
My follow Catholics. In the recently Reading of the mass learned. “Do Not preparation your defence when dragged into synagogues or Templeton, and questioned on your faith. The lord will give you a response so elegant it can not be refuted”
I just say peace be with you. Do not argue, but show the beautiful of our catholic faith. As st peter said !ove One Another.
Why I go to Mass and one old man’s Christian witness.
I am just a humble, ordinary, very old Christian who would like to share with you, while I can, on why I go to Mass, especially from a Biblical point of view. My hope is that in sharing, if nothing else, the result will be a better understanding of my motivation along with the hundreds of millions of other Christians on why we go to Mass.
If I may?
Why I go to Mass?
Consider the following:
First of all, I believe participating in Mass is absolutely the very best effort one can make to be in union with the Will of God and, as such, the very best thing one can do to get them through the narrow gate or door to Heaven.
A. “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.” Luke 13:24
Secondly, what greater source of holiness and intimate union can there be than one receiving Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, through holy communion?
A. “Strive for peace with all men, and for that holiness without which no man will see God.” Hebrews 12:14
Jesus teaches all of us in John 3:36, that we must not only believe in Him but also obey him to have eternal life!
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36
To believe in Jesus is to also obey what Jesus clearly teaches to gain eternal life. Consider the following Biblical teachings from Jesus and as you are doing this maybe also ask yourself the following question. How many more times and how else and what else could Jesus have said to convince everyone He is talking and teaching literally and not symbolically. When doing this note again the seven consecutive very bold and recurring declarations made by Jesus within John 6:51-58? Note also that Jesus as God goes way out of His way to use affirming and confirming words as “truly” and “real” in proclaiming “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” And at the same time bear in mind that God does not lie.
John 6:51-58—
51 “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
Yes, the seven bold proclamations of Jesus above very much teach what to do, that is if one wants to have God in you, you in God, be raised up on the last day, and most of all be granted eternal life with God!
Consider the following hypothetical story. With all other things being equal, suppose one could only get into Heaven by belonging to a group that best knows the revealed truth of God (John 4:24, ‘worship God in truth’).
Two groups are approaching the pearly gates of Heaven. The first group believed in the literal teaching words of Jesus as outlined above; the second group believed Jesus was only talking figuratively or metaphorically. Keeping in mind all the above teachings of Jesus, which group would you want to be included in? I, for one, would very much want to be included in the first group.
One last observation, suppose somehow what I believe to be the impossible happens and Jesus tells me on my Judgement Day, I was very wrong about my literal belief of His teachings within John 6:51-58.
What would my hope be? I don’t know about others, but for myself I would still be very hopeful of receiving from Jesus His abundant love and mercy upon my soul. Why, because my choice was made in loving obedience to the multiple, recuring teachings of Jesus who again use confirming words as ‘truly’ and ‘real’ in His discourse of John 6:51-58.
Thanks a whole bunch for allowing me to share with you. As such, I hope the next time you see or hear of Catholics going to Mass, maybe with the above shared Biblical teachings and rationale there will be a little more understanding of this very Biblical and very Christian historical belief.
May the cup of life for you and yours always overflow with the abundant love and grace of God!
Your friend in Jesus, george
ps
“… Is not the cup of blessing that we bless a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” 1 Cor 10:15-16
“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.” 1 Cor 11:27-29
The term protestant is often misused. There were 7 Churches in Asia Minor…2 survived…Smyrna and Philadelphia..both were Jewish…not Gentile. These were the original and the doctrine was sound and simple…so simple that a child could understand it…..When people use the term protestant..they refer to Martin Luthers protest..Catholics take claim of being the first established Church with the dogma/doctrine being settled. over 300 years after Christ The councils debated ..For instance… Arius denounced the Trinity..etc. Doctrine is what separates churches. There were Many believers before Catholic Church existed that refused to participant with any council knowing that man would change what had been learned about Jesus. The debates alone prove that doctrine had to be accepted and the elect of the councils became more than leaders..they became deceitful and sometimes evil within the created Church you call Catholic and denied access to the laity for centuries and murdered infidels.. I am not saying the Catholic Church is evil..I am stating historical facts which cannot be denied. Point is..the first church was not universal…there was no Pope nor mediator EXCEPT Jesus. Jesus was asked at the Last Supper..who is the greatest among the disciples…Do I need to tell you what Jesus said? Many so-called protestants are offended by Catholics referring to themselves as the true church..and telling us to come back to the Mother Church..There is no Mother church..the church is the BODY of Christ…Not building of Christ..nor the denomination …all believers are saved..Be you Catholic or Protestant..Or NEITHER..as long as you BELIEVE in Jesus..no conditions or works can be offered as proof…when Jesus did all works and met all conditions….for ALL believers!..Jesus reconciled our sinful nature with His father..now we are His children…Be neither Jew/Gentile…BE A CHRISTIAN! A new creature and keep the doctrine SIMPLE..so a child can understand..and not speak in unknown tongues to justify rituals, traditions and unsound doctrine.If you believe Jesus died…resurrected from the dead and is the ONLY begotten Son ..and accept Him as REDEEMER..Savior…you shall be saved..and they isn’t any if or buts about it!
That is all true, except one thing, Jesus gets us to heaven but the final judgement is from God…so just because we beleive doesn’t mean internal life…we to have to live by what the word says…good example it tells you in the new and old testament that man sleeping with man is an unforgivable sin…but gays think because they beleive they are saved….they can think that but judgement day is what God decides…
Catholics now I think the traditional ways get in the way of worshipin Jesus….Mother Mary was a sinner and need a savior, that’s in the bible, the only sinless one was Jesus, that’s in the bible…hail Mary is NOT in the bible, it says in the bible to confess through the highest priest and in the bible that highest priest is Jesus, there is a one father, (God)…so telling their priest of the church their confusion, well they can do it them selves, why tell that priest their business. So traditions if they would throw that out (like a traditional Christmas tree) maybe the would see what the new testament is all about….I have been around a ton of Catholics all my life and 75% will go to mass and after mass to the local private club and get drunk…in the bible it says not to over endulge..So u see what I have witnessed is something I myself choose not to do because I do read what the bible says…these are choices and opinions…I still love my Catholic friends we have talked about all this some have left the Catholic church for a nomdenomalnational church….they have found that relationship with Jesus and are amazed on there new life….
Joshua. I’m assuming you speak as a non-catholic. Which is fine. Please do not interpret my answer as an attack. I actually think that your defense is very educated and it sounds all nice, simple and clear. There are many reasons as why I personally believe and know the Catholic church is the one and true church but it is pointless for me to say. Im not here to convert. Nevertheless the only flaw I see in what you said in regard to the philosophy of “only believing in Jesus and him being a redeemer and a saviour”.
As much as I want to believe in such a detailed explanation like that and as an open mind as I may have yet still being a Catholic. Deep in my heart and in my brain. The most rational disagreement I have against that way of thinking is that , Jesus, being wise and knowing all and also being human knows how our societies work and ways of governing; etc.
I dont think our dearest Jesus Christ , would leave us “without a one and true church” . There is no way in my most rational mind that he would leave is in Anarchy . There still has to be someone to guide us in scriptural and tradiotonal interpretation. Look at how divided we are still with having churches. It would have been worse if he left no Church or no leader to guide us.
Obviously I do not defend the errors that happened in The Catholic church, internal and external, directly or indirectly due to it. But I believe it is very important for us all , Catholics and Non-Catholics to truly remember and understand one thing: Politics and Errors have happened within the Catholic church and all protestant churches. Only because a priest sins does not mean all priests do. Mistakes and errors do not change the truth.
The same way we can have a horrible President or horrible politicians it does not change the beauty of a constitution. We can all interpret it different to suit our needs and wants but it does not change the original texts.
That’s about the only way I can compare it.
Blessings!
RE:
Mary on November 17, 2015 at 8:37 am
Mary Im sorry that you live in that type of ignorance. I was planning to leave without comment but it’s protestants like you that get me started.
There is this huge issue that happens of Catholics vs Protestants and we have all sides judging each other. But the same way that you notice your Catholic friends going to mass and then going to clubs and getting drunk. That is not exclusive to Catholic followers nor does that define the Catholic church. What you decide to do represents your own hypocrisy not the truth.
I hate getting down to this level, but sometimes its the only way people like you may understand.
For one homosexuality yes it was condemned by God but also premarital sex was condemned by God, however you have a bigoted society like America for example that picks and chooses sins to accuse those who they despise yet forgetting they live in abomination as well.
Lastly and most importantly, nations like America and Canada were founded by protestants and are still mostly protestant-minded, with that said, Have you not noticed how as a whole these protestant countries are representation of so much sexual and drug liberalism? You guys mostly live in debauchery.
And you guys are mostly protestant.
However you dont hear Catholics slandering your people and blaming your people for your errors.
Mary, as well as most catholics lack an understanding of what salvation is. God is a God of love, but also of justice. Sin must be punished. Jesus suffered the wrath of the Father for our sins on the cross. It was His baptism into death. Through faith we are baptized into the death of Christ. Paul says we are crucified with Christ and no longer live, but Christ lives His life through us by the Holy Spirit. God has ALREADY judged our sins on the cross when we trusted Jesus. The fact that catholics refuse to believe in the love and mercy of God who took our punishment, shows that they are not saved. They refuse to believe that God is rich in mercy to all who call upon Him. When a person trusts in Jesus and believes the promises of God, Paul says we are “marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, an ernest, or downpayment of our inheritance.” Peter says we partake of God’s divine nature, and again, Paul says we become “new creations in Christ, the old is gone and the new has come.” The old is GONE because the old was nailed to the cross, and when Jesus rose from the dead, we were “raised up and are seated with Him in heavenly places.”
The catholic church knows nothing about salvation. It is found ONLY in Jesus. He is our savior, not the church, nor the popes, not Mary, nor anything or anyone else the catholic church puts in place of Jesus. HE is the foundation, and the cornerstone, NOT Peter. Jesus said, You are Peter (“petra” a small stone) and upon this rock (“Petros” an immovable rock, the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God) I will build My Church. Peter is NOT that Rock. Jesus is the Rock. Peter himself stated, WE ALL like living stones are being built up together to become a dwelling place for God. Paul agreed, stating, “But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He has loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive, made us alive with Christ, it is by grace you have been saved. And He raised us up WITH HIM, and seated us in heavenly places in Christ Jesus…you are fellow citizens with God’s people and His household, having been built of the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the Cornerstone, IN WHOM the whole building (the Body of Christ) being fitted together, is growing into a holy Temple in the Lord,in whom you also are being built together to become a dwelling place for God in the Spirit. In the book of Revelation, John tells us that “God and the Lamb are the Temple.” Peter and Paul tell us that believers, those who believe and trust in Jesus for their salvation, are “living stones” along with them, in that Temple.
Faith is BELIEVING the promises of God. God PROMISED salvation to those who BELIEVE. “Abraham believed God and it was credited to Him as righteousness.” “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous…these things have I written so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” “…the testimony of God is this, that He testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself.” “It is the Holy Spirit who testifies.” “And the testimony is this: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has the Life…” In other words, Jesus Christ, who Himself is eternal life (Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the Life,” and also “I am the resurrection and the life.”) lives inside the believer. The believer has eternal life because the ONE who IS eternal LIFE lives in them. And He has promise, “never will I leave you or forsake you…” Catholic’s refuse to believe God is that wonderful and merciful. They have no faith in God, but rather place their faith in their church, and its leaders, along with their false doctrines and man-made traditions.
I don’t expect any catholic to accept this truth. The Holy Spirit comes to live in those who believe God’s testimony, that through the Son we have eternal life. Those who refuse to believe this testimony, who have not the Spirit, cannot understand the Word of God because it is spiritual discerned. Pride will not allow them to believe the simple truth that God loves them and WANTS to save them. The Christian loves and serves God, NOT to earn salvation, but because God has already loved and saved Him through Jesus’ death and resurrection. God gives us His Spirit and eternal life as a FREE GIFT to those who place their trust in HIM.It is God’s grace, mercy and kindness that teaches us to say no to sin, and to “offer our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to Him. We love Him because He first loved us and has given us His righteousness and His life. Catholics still portray Jesus as a dead man on a cross because they can’t understand the power of His resurrected life in those who believe and trust only in Him. Jesus is no longer on a cross. He is alive and in those who love Him. The book of Hebrews plainly states that those who live by faith in the PROMISES of God, have “come to Mount Zion, to the City of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to a myriad of angles in joyful celebration, to the general assembly, and the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaks better than the blood of Abel.” And “since we are receiving a Kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe…”
Catholicism is a religion of idolatry because Jesus is replaced by popes and priests and their vain traditions which contradict the plain teaching of the Bible, and they refuse to believe that “God rewards those who earnestly seek Him,” and that we may “approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so the we may receive mercy and find grace in our time of need.” And that “throne of grace” does not belong to Mary, or any pope. It belongs to God and the Lamb.
I was raised in a Protestant church, Methodist, and I heard a lot that we agreed with the Catholic Church much more than we disagreed. I have never even heard the idea that Catholics are not Christians. Honestly, I have wrestled with many ideas regarding Church Tradition, and whether or not Catholicism is the “true” religion. It cannot be argued that the Catholic Church is the church that descended from Jesus and the Apostles. This is a fact.
I have considered whether I should convert to Catholicism, and I realize now that this is something for which I will have to pray for more fervently, because I have not come to a conclusion that I can stick with. The issue for me is one of doctrine and church practices. The idea that one MUST confess their sins to a priest is very troubling to me. The Covenant God made with the Jewish people involved priests, which the people utilized for their connection to God. The priests made sacrifices to the Lord so that God would wipe away Israel’s sins. With the New Covenant, and the New Testament is pretty clear on this, Jesus is the new High Priest. In my mind that means we have direct access to God through His Son, Jesus Christ. Thus why would I have to confess my sins to a priest, when Jesus is my High Priest? This is just one issue that troubles me with the Catholic Church.
However, with all that said, I do NOT think Catholics are wrong for utilizing a priest in this manner. I do not think it is a sin or anything like that, rather I simply do not believe that it is a requirement. Even if some will not admit this fact, the Catholic Church did persecute, offer indulgences for money, etc. in times past. I think this teaches that the Church is not infallible, although it would be wrong not to forgive these actions. These past wrong-doings do not invalidate the Church in my opinion, but just goes to show that even the leaders, the priests, bishops, and even the pope, still depend upon God and can still sin just as easily as anyone else.
Thus that is an additional item that turns me away from the Catholic Church, the idea that any human, besides Jesus, is infallible. I have considered that perhaps God has caused these religious leaders in the past to do certain things, which worked out according to God’s plan, but this is quickly dispelled by the fact that God would not and does not cause anyone to sin. Thus in times past it was the pope or the priests themselves who sinned. For instance, the Inquisition. The Lord taught us to love one another, and also taught us that murder is wrong, and that forgiveness is always the way to go, no matter what.
There are some other ideas that bother me about the Catholic Church, but I will go ahead and state the conclusion that I have come to currently, and explains why I am still a Methodist and not a Catholic-
I think God, because He loves us so much, would always reward those who seek after Him, as long as they confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh as God, and died for our sins. To bolster my argument, this statement, the Bible teaches us, can only come from the Holy Spirit. Thus if, as a Protestant, I can confess Jesus Christ, then I have the Holy Spirit, and this confirms that I do not need to be Catholic to be saved. Regardless, I ask for the prayers of all believers, that God will grant me more faith, and that I can do more to live for Him and not myself. Likewise, I pray for all of you reading this as well. Lord, please bless everyone reading this through your infinite Mercy, and let your Grace shine down upon us all. Amen.
Hi John,
Thank you for this. You have a lot of great questions here. I’m glad that you consider Catholics to be Christians. Many people do not. And I’m glad that you see that the Catholic Church was the one founded by Jesus Christ. Keep praying and discerning God’s will about joining the Catholic Church.
To your question about the infallibility of the Church – You are correct that Catholics, including lay people, priests, bishops, and even the pope are sinners in need of a Savior. As Catholics, we profess Jesus as Lord. The infallibility of the Church does not speak to the sinfulness of her members. Catholics believe that the Church cannot teach error regarding faith and morals because she has the protection of the Holy Spirit. This means that truth is not decided by democratic vote, but that it is received from Jesus Christ and protected by the Catholic Church. As a Catholic you do not have to figure out the nuances of Christian doctrine for yourself. You have the promise of Jesus Himself that his Church will not teach error. St. Irenaeus, one of the early Church Fathers wrote: “For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God, there the Church and every grace. The Spirit, however, is truth.” (See John 16:13, John 14:26, Luke 10:16, 1 Timothy 3:15, Acts 15:38, and Matthew 28:20)
To your question about confessing to a priest – You are correct that Jesus is the high priest of the new covenant. You are also correct that anyone can pray to Jesus and Jesus hears him. Jesus also invites us to cooperate with God’s grace and receive grace through human ministers. One example is listening to a preacher share the Word of God. Another example is to be baptized, which is necessary for salvation. A third example is to confess our sins to one another through a priest who acts “in the person of Jesus”. Jesus Christ gave his apostles the power to retain and forgive sins. When we confess to a priest, it is as if we are confessing to Jesus Himself, and we receive absolution (our sins are forgiven). Only priests can offer absolution because they have the sacrament of Holy Orders. (See Matthew 9:2-8, John 20:22-23, 2 Corinthians 5:17-20, James 5:13-15, Matthew 18:18)
God bless!
John, as as Catholic, I’ve long felt a special affinity with Methodists. I feel like we are on the same page about so many critical issues, particularly grace / free will.
Confessing sin to priests is an interesting issue. The only sins you ‘must’ confess to a priest are those that are mortal, though there is no list of what is mortal and what is venial. There are criteria, but at the heart of it, the mortal sins are those that are so serious, and undertaken deliberately, without coercion or pressure, with full knowledge of their gravity, that they utterly fracture your relationship with God. They constitute an absolute rejection of the faith. The sacrament in which you confess your sins is called ‘reconciliation,’ because the idea is that you are making an overt, physical act, to reconcile yourself with God through His visible church. The point is not really the confessing of the sins, but in healing the soul. The sacrament is fundamentally therapeutic. You are invited and encouraged to confess all sins, but the only sins the Church states you must confess to achieve salvation are those that have essentially severed your relationship with God. You can’t just fix it on your own for the same reason that you can’t baptize yourself, or pray at home privately on Sunday instead of coming to Church to receive the Eucharist.
We Catholics, however, agree with you that we have direct access to God. Every baptized Christian is a priest (though not the same order of priest as ordained priests, who are not the same order of priest as Jesus, the High Priest). We are free to pray to God directly, to call Him our Father, to ask the Lord’s mother for her prayers, to offer up sacrifices, and to bless those in our lives. We are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, God’s very own possession. I think the Methodist job does a better job that we do in emphasizing this important orthodox doctrine, and it shows in the Church’s great commitment to social action and justice. But, like Methodists, we believe that the ordained priesthood is of particular importance in God’s plan of salvation. Ordained priests, who can trace their lines of succession back to the apostles, serve a unique role in ministering many of the sacraments (though, importantly, not matrimony — the bride and groom are the ministers of that sacrament). Ordained priests serve in persona Christi, and beyond their ability to minister sacraments validly, they have a wealth of training and education in pastoral matters, so there is a very practical rationale for their role in the sacrament of reconciliation. They are engaging in a task that is rather similar to psychotherapy (healing the soul rather than the mind), which we as a society rightly recognize to be of sufficient importance as to require years of training and a regulated licensing process.
The Catholic Church would agree with you that no human, except for Jesus, is infallible, not even a Pope. But certainly humans can be infallible in certain matters. If I say that “Jesus is the Son of God,” that statement is infallible, wouldn’t you agree? The doctrine of papal infallibility does not state that the pope is infallible; it just states that certain, very narrowly limited in scope, of his statements are infallible. He has to be speaking on a matter of doctrine, and he has to be speaking ex cathedra, and his teaching must be consistent with scripture and holy tradition. It has only been invoked once in the last 100 years, in 1950, and in that case, the pope was just ratifying something that had been part of the liturgy for centuries.
I wish you well on your spiritual journey. I encourage you to explore the Catholic church — come to a mass, hang out with some catholics, get to know a priest. But whether you should convert or not is a very personal decision between you and God. Some of the Christians I admire most are Methodist. And some of my favorite hymns, that we sing at my Catholic church on Sundays, were written by Charles Wesley. Pax Christi!
Hi John I am Catholic and wanted to appreciate your openness with regards to the possibilities of forgiveness of sins thru instrumentality of Catholic ordained priest. I agree with you directly going to Jesus is the best way which we believed is an extraordinary way that requires perfect act of contrition. How do we know for sure that our sins are forgiven? The answer will be now subjective between you and Jesus Christ but given that we are not perfect and sins repeatedly perfect act of contrition will be a challenge or impossible. The Church and the Bible teaches us the ordinary way.. example in John 20:23. Ordinary way is confessing mortal sins to a priest acting as persona Christi will gave you absolution which you know you are forgiven. Catholics believed both ways of forgiving sins. Apostolic succession is the only reasonable explanation as to why Catholic ordained priest has authority to forgive confessed sins in ordinary way. Test everything and retained what is good!!! God Bless you brother in Christ!!!
http://www.npr.org/2015/01/30/382374060/from-laundering-to-profiteering-a-multitude-of-sins-at-the-vatican-bank
Vatican Banks were not held accontable to banling untill existing laws were forced unpon them, and pandorsa box was opened. VATICAN CITY (TheBlaze/AP) — A Vatican official was arrested Friday by Italian police for allegedly trying to bring 20 million euros ($26 million) in cash into the country from Switzerland aboard an Italian government plane, his lawyer said. The allegations are stunning, especially considering that they involve an official who works for the Catholic Church.
Monsignor Nunzio Scarano, already under investigation in a purported money-laundering plot involving the Vatican bank, is accused of fraud, corruption and slander stemming from the ploy, which never got off the ground, attorney Silverio Sica told The Associated Press.
It was the latest financial scandal to hit the Vatican and came just two days after Pope Francis created a commission of inquiry into the Vatican bank to get to the bottom of the problems that have plagued it for decades and contributed to damaging the Vatican’s reputation.
What a load of crap. I was bought up CofE and we never even discussed Catholics. In fact I never heard of Catholism until I started work. I never discussed religion. When Catholics met me they were the ones who asked are you a Catholic? If I answered no I would then be over looked for promotion. In my adulthood what I have discovered Catholics are the most biased people against other religions. With the rise of Islam no wonder why Islamics are being portrayed badly and they being demonised. The Catholics are scared Islamics will rule supreme and the Catholics won’t be rich and powerful.
Hi Martin, I was born into the CofE and converted to Catholicism. As a CofE, we were never taught that Catholics are not Christian. However, I think the type of Protestants spoken of here are more those Evangelical/Fundamentalist/Pentecostal types as they have a particular obsession with the Catholic Church and are brainwashed into believing we do not believe in Christ. It is absolutely bizarre and it would be laughable if it were not so offensive. I was talking to an “Assistant Pastor” from New Creation Church who wanted to argue with me that Catholics and Orthodox are not Christian. Deeply offensive and utter rot but as I said, they’re brainwashed. The good old C of E are not part of this fundie groupthink. As for the fundies, they need to get a life, pray to God and mind their own business. Leave Catholic Christians and Orthodox alone!
When I’m asked if I’m a Catholic or a Christian, I always respond by saying Catholic. Then I respond by saying let me clarify myself. To say I’m Catholic is to say I belong to the church Christ established 2000 years ago. To say I’m merely a Christian, is to say I belong to one of the many thousands of churches that was established by a man or women within the past 500 years. To say I’m just a Christian, is to say, I worship Jesus in the way I want to worship Jesus. To say I’m Catholic, is to say, I worship Jesus, in the way Jesus wants me to worship him. So yep…I’m Catholic 100%.
Good article. I was born and raised as a Baptist and I agree with our corrupted views on Catholicism and it is wrong, rude, and unprofessional for anyone to preach such backstabbing views. We are told, in very covert ways, that Catholics are not Christian but I do not recall any Protestant church claiming that the church was a cult. When I was ten years old, my mom married a Catholic and I began going to his church and loved it. I loved the family atmosphere, the friendliness of everyone, the acceptance of me regardless that I was not Catholic and it was just cool to be there. There is one thing that stands out that Baptists never discuss and that is marriage. This area is never discussed in any Baptist church that I have attended. Sure we focus on Biblical scripture, but we never discuss politics, marriage, social ills, the importance of family etc. I have spent years going to a Baptist church and have only known a few people. Too many of us are segregated at church, do not mix, divorce rates are high, and unless you are friends within a circle, you won’t be invited to talk to them. Oh they may come up and say hi, but you can tell it’s fake and forced. The Protestant faith is broken and segregated. I was talking to a Catholic buddy of mine about this just tonight coming home from a gaming event and I told him that had I been born into a Catholic family, I would be married with a family. He is and has been married for 20 years. Me? lol,,you people are lucky. You don’t have to deal with the BS I have to deal with. He is a medic at a local hospital and he was telling me the stories of what he hears from non-Catholic women, multiple men, kids, continual broken relationships. I said, yep, I’ve dated them and met them in online dating apps too. We are a mess and it isn’t getting any better. So you folks, just keep your head up high and don’t give up and keep the faith. You may have your shortcomings as every faith does, but in the end, you’re better off. As long as Jesus is your Savior, the rest is just noise. And be thankful you have a family to go home too.
I was SHOCKED the first time a Catholic did exactly as the article outlines “I’m not a Christian, etc… ”
This article simply and respectfully (IMHO), SOLVES this problem while respecting ALL people involved.
Great job!!!
Love & peace to all. <3
We Catholics are the OC-original Christians. The Holy Church of Rome is THE church left to us by Christ himself. Protestants must besmirch us to justify their made up religions. Jesus and the Holy Mother will forgive them their blindness, though.
Could you please provide scripture where this “Holy Mother” has the ability to forgive? If she is dead, how can she forgive?
There is NO scripture for Mary being able to forgive, save, or mediate between us and God. A church’s validity is not based on how long it has been in existence, but how much of the bible it follows and whether it’s actions and words point to and glorify Christ and no one else.
The Apostle Paul said if anyone or any angel comes and preaches any other “gospel” than what you have (already) received, let him be cursed. (Galatians 1:8)
The Apostle Paul also told the Church that there is ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (1st Timothy 2:5) Mary wasn’t mentioned by Paul, Peter, John, James, or any other Gospel writer or apostle. Only an “apostate” church would have people to venerate Mary as the co-mediatrix (or mediator), and only an apostate church would have a man sit on a throne claim to be the “Holy Father” (which really applies to God Almighty in John 17:11, Matthew 23:9), and only an apostate church would have their head bishop claiming that homosexuals can now be married.
If you cannot see this as sin, then you are already reprobate, under a strong delusion, incurably blind, and damned like those Catholics and Protestants who supported Adolph Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco. And, if the blind shall lead the blind, they both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15:14)
There were some people that even Jesus couldn’t help. If you can’t see this, then you are likely to be in this group.
the catholic church didnt start until aroundn200 years after the original church that the apostoles started from the day of pentecost read ( Acts chapters 1 and 2.
This is true. I have asked several catholic brothers were they christian their response was no and I corrected them. Also I even asked several Protestant clergy with doctoral degrees in divinity and their response was no as well. This also led to several in depth analysis with my colleagues. Great piece here or peace
Now days Religion isn’t about God,it’s about control, for political and capital gains.Religion kills a lot more people then it saves.I for one will have no part of it,you can keep your religion.
I instruct Highschool teenagers in the Catholic faith. I asked what is your religion and most answered Catholic. I worked in the hospital as an x-ray technologist and when I asked a patient if they were Catholic most non-Cathoalics would reply they were Christian. This blew me away and opened my eyes to why our country is in some respects divided and in some cases have shown to be intolerant of one another; mainly misunderstanding. C.K. CHESTERTON also said “a person doesn’t stumble over a mountain but a small object like a rock”. St. Pacian Bishop of Barcelona’s treatise on why we use the word Catholic was written in the 4th century and should be taught every Christian Catholic, by all of us, from Pope Francis down to me Frank. Why should we be so ignorant from 365 AD to 2020 AD. Jesus has done a beautiful and miraculous work bringing His Church through 1600 hundred years of hell or (2000 years of it to be precise) making it blossom into a beautiful Christian Jewish faith He gave the world while not letting the gates of hell prevail over His Church as He promised. The Catholic Christian Churches have everything Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Caiaphas, Peter, and Paul’s temple had even when Josephus ben Mathias (Flavius) was recording Jewish history for Rome. Jesus temple is still evolving; Jesus Yashua the Messiah is very much in charge.
Our tears will be dried by the Holy Spirit and and our hearts will healed as we mourn for and weep for and long to be United with our Jewish brothers and sisters. I and all of us forgive what has been done by our Jewish family to us and we profoundly say we are sorry for not being like Jesus Yashua with Agape love for our Jewish family members and are deeply sorry for the bad things we have done.
A thought for both sides to remember is; we have never never been separated from each other. In every country (144) we were their together and Jesus was there, Yahweh Daddy ABBA God was there, and the Holy Spirit the same Spirit that came upon the 2 people outside Moses camp when the 70 inside received Him, and came down and fill those in an upper room after Jesus Yashua ascended unto Yahweh Daddy God that we call Pentecost, we were all there. May God Bless all creation, Peoples, our Jewish Brothers and Sisters, and Christian and Christian Catholic Brothers and Sisters with a sense of belonging to God and Christian and Jews embracing each other starting today as real family members.
This is inaccurate. In order to be Christian (aka Christ follower) one must follow what scripture teaches. Catholics do not.
There is no evidence in scripture for the following catholic doctrines that they teach and practice:
– veneration of Mary
– veneration of saints
– purgatory
– indulgences
– treasury of merit
– the scapular
– the pope
– catholic priesthhood
– salvation through works
– unbloody mass
On the contrary there is lots of scripture that speaks against these things. The Bible is an anti-catholic book. It speaks against the dogmas of the cathechism that the catholics have created as an addition to the divine revelation of the Bible. Not only did they create these damning heresies, they put it equal to and above the scripture, and anything else for that matter that comes out of the popes mouth ex cathedra, or has ever come out of any popes mouth, because according the catholic faith this pope is the vicor of christ (appointed christ on earth) who is infallible. Wowzer. Sinful fallen man, infallible. Yikes. Unfortunately this is there heretical doctrine.
They are storing up Gods wrath. These people are lost. This is a very large religious organization that is leading people to hell. Just as in Jesus day the predominant teachings of the judiazers were leading people to hell. Why? Because God has already documented the way to salvation and sanctification. It can be found in His holy word.
May you find Him now.
We’ve got to do something about this BS. The Church fathers of Protestantism even developed a faith name after their protesting the Catholic Church. Come on now. The more we discover about this absolute disaster ! I’m hoping we just all cons home and run the hell out. The church fathers didn’t even anticipate or paved any road for unity. Protestantism is meant to last for all eternity.m!!
Yes. :,everyone can own a Bible. But if the Bible we all read from not bringing us together that’s the first sign we need an interpreter.
I’m Catholic convert and the Holy Spirit is making things more clear by the week. Get out !!!!
Jesus said to Peter, “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Matthew 16-18).
I don’t think Jesus told Peter to go out and find a few ordinary people and build 45,000 churches,
and put one on every block with its own pope making 45,000 interpretations of the Bible.
Protestantism is unorthodox, apostatic,false and an insult to the Holy Trinity.
I totally agree with your post as a Catholic. There is but One God, One Faith and One Baptism. Forgiveness ALWAYS comes AFTER Transgression. To believe otherwise is a lie. So, as St. Paul states, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek (metaphor for Catholic) as both understand what Atonement is. What protestors believe is otherworldly. NOWHERE in God’s Creation, God’s Order, God’s Image or Scripture does “forgiveness come before transgression” but two places: Hell (the contradiction to God) and the mind of the Protestor.
As St. Peter said in 2Peter, those that preach misinformation will be punished. The authors of the Bible were Pharisee meaning, they were staunch supporters of oral tradition and earthly authority via Priest/Rabbi. The Sadducees were the modern day Protestors, they denied God’s earthly authorities and had ZERO influence on Jesus or the Bible. Only a psycho would believe a bunch of Pharisees who organized the Catholic Church before the Bible would suddenly go against everything in them to become a Sadducees or deny God’s earthly authority LOL.
St. Paul used Abe in Romans 4 for a reason. Abe’s Faith begins in Genesis Chapter 12, God does not decide to credit him as righteous until Chapter 15 AFTER he was obedient and performed what St. Paul labeled Works of Faith. Then God tests Abe again in 22 (meaning Free Will not Pre-Destination) which obviously means He did not consider him righteous. So, St. Paul byway of Abe was able to demonstrate it is not Works of Law (Romans 3) that gains Salvation but Works of Faith (Romans 2, Salvation rendered to each mans Works). The rest of Romans, St. Paul BURIES the one-pivot lie or the one-pivot sufficiency.
Well stated. However, I have a couple points. First, I agree we Catholics need to understand better that when we’re asked if we’re Christians, we don’t necessarily answer “Catholic” to differentiate from others, but to indicate, “well duh, of course I am”.
It’s disingenuous, to ask if I’m a Christian and I say Catholic, only to hear, “well, I’m a Christian”. If I as a Catholic asked if someone was Christian and they said “yes, I’m a Protestant or yes, I’m a Methodist, I would know what they mean and would not diffentiate them from Christianity.
Next, I longer say I’m a Catholic Christian, as I believe this to be exclusionary. I will say I’m Christian first. I might then say I’m a member of the Roman Catholic Church of faith. But, first and foremost, I’m a Christian in the Universal Church of Christ.
My wife, raised strict Catholic until she was ~18, will to this day (@ 62) tell me “Catholics are not Chistians”. It infuriates me, as the statement makes NO sense, since Christ is fairly central to their tenets.
I was raised Lutheran (also until ~18), and DO consider Catholics Christians, but I’m on the outside looking in.
I would like to testify that I, having been baptized and brought up as a pre-vatican II American Roman Catholic that the quote “The Catholic Church has absorbed all kinds of non-apostolic traditions and as such is no longer Christian.” pretty much describes the way I feel. In the last 40 years or so I have read a “ton” of church history, from both Roman authorities and non-Roman and have read and re-read the catholic new testimony too many times to count and to tell you the “Honest to God” truth, I can’t help but feel this way. And the worst thing is as soon as I engage other catholics about these things I am accused of being a “protestant”.
Tim
If you are not fully in communion with Rome, and you are not Orthodox, you are a Protestant.
Benjamin we all are Christians. Jesus didn’t wanted a divided church. It is people who divided the church and we people have to bring the church to gather again. Its our responsibility toward word of Jesus. I am a Catholic baptized and raised in the tradition. But if some body ask’s me what my believe is, Then my answer is “Christian”. Because i believe that Jesus wont judge you on, if you are a Catholic or a Protestant. We all are Christians, we all are brothers and sisters united in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior.
But we don’t all believe in the same things. Many sects that call themselves Christian aren’t, not because I’m Catholic but because they put aside Christ’s clear teaching, such as His teaching on marriage, opening it to same sex marriages, having married bishops, having women bishops who want to refer to God as “Mother” because they’re women. Most lack ordination and dont’ believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist; many don’t receive the Eucharist regularly.
Where exactly in the New Testament is Jesus’s “clear teaching” on same sex marriage?
TO NAN,
THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY BISHOPS SHOULD NOT BE MARRIED, IN FACT IT SAYS THE OPPOSITE.
HERE IS WHAT PAUL SAID ABOUT BISHOPS:
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, *If a man desire the office of a bishop*, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 *A bishop* then must be blameless, *the husband of one wife*, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12* Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their
own houses well*.
AND
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and *ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee*:
Tit 1:6 *If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly*.
Tit 1:7 *For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God*; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 *Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught*, *that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort* and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For *there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers*, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 *Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not*, for filthy lucre’s sake.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore *rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith*;
Tit 1:14 *Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth*.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 *They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient*, and unto every good work reprobate.
WHY DOES THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH FORBID MARRIAGE TO THEIR BISHOPS?
HE IS WHAT PAUL WARNED TIMOTHY ABOUT THOSE DEPARTING FROM THE FAITH
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, *giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils*;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 *Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats*, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
AND PAUL TELLS US THEY DID NOT HAVE ONE BISHOP BUT LOCAL BISHOPS:
Phi 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with *the bishops and deacons*:
Phi 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think you have misunderstood the historical context of the injunction against ‘forbidding to marry’ in 1 Timothy. There were gnostic groups who literally forbid people from marrying, because they thought that sex and reproduction were inherently evil, because they thought that the material world itself was evil. These gnostics believed that the material world was created by an evil demiurge rather than by God. The Catholic view, in contrast, was that the material world was created by God and was inherently good, and so reproduction is not intrinsically evil. By an ahistorical reading of scripture, it seems you have misunderstood to what the sacred author was referring.
There is no theological reason why a married individual cannot receive the sacrament of holy orders, nor is there a theological reason why a priest or bishop cannot receive the sacrament of matrimony, and indeed, there have been married bishops in the past. The current practice against married priests and bishops is a pastoral discipline.
According to your view, you would forbid an unmarried person from becoming a bishop? That is ridiculous and absolutely not in line with scriptural intent.
To John Chrysostom:
I think you have misunderstood that this is speaking about the latter times not the 4th century A.D.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Latter times:
“The Church was a thousand years old before it definitively took a stand in favor of celibacy in the twelfth century at the Second Lateran Council held in 1139, when a rule was approved forbidding priests to marry. In 1563, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy”. – See more at: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696#sthash.e4q7ubcc.dpuf
The scriptures do not say there is a queen of heaven and in fact in Jeremiah honoring a queen of heaven was considered “worshipping other gods” which angered God:
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the *queen of heaven*, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Your statement:
According to your view, you would forbid an unmarried person from becoming a bishop? That is ridiculous and absolutely not in line with scriptural intent.
I am not sure you are speaking to me as it is not my view that clergy should be banned from marriage but a belief of the Roman catholic church approved by the Second Lateran Council in 1139, and re-affirmed In 1563, by the Council of Trent
You don’t think the fourth century (I’m not sure why you picked the fourth century, as the gnostics had a much wider timeframe, but I’ll go with it for the sake of argument) is *latter* than the century in which 1 Timothy was written?
You also said you thought that the line in 1 Timothy, that says that bishops must “μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα,” required the *opposite* of what the Church requires. I thought that was absurd and asked you if you really thought that bishops *must* be married (and, by extension, must have multiple children b/c of verse 4, etc). So yes, the question was very much directed at you. If you say yes, you are consistent, though it sounds like you might have fallen asleep when you took Greek. If you say no, you are not being consistent at all. The phrase μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα does not mean that one must be married — it is an idiom that literally says “a one woman man” and which meant that the person was not a philanderer.
We Catholics take scripture very seriously, which means we learn the original languages and we learn the historical contexts before ranting about what the scriptures mean. These are sacred texts written by God and they deserve no less.
Hi Tim, it seems no one has anything more to say here on the subject. You are probably more capable in addressing the topic, as you grew up in the Catholic church. I do appreciate this opportunity to talk to other believers, and would never want to alienate anyone in the Catholic church.
Pattis Post..worth a second read…”.Benjamin…Jesus angered the Jewish leaders because He pointed out how they burdened the people with added requirements, and their concern with tradition and the “letter”of the law but did not practice the “heart” of the law. When a person proclaims Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he is saved by the blood of Christ! Nothing else has to be added to the work of Christ. I do take exception to that I take communion in remembrance of Jesus death, and was baptized as a public witness of being born of the Spirit as a result of my faith…NOT because of anything I did…not of works! If you want to help point people to a saving faith in Christ, don’t complicate it” ……I want the Catholics to read what she said..it is an absolute truth and the article must address this as the REAL reason..not the claim of just being Catholic..not Christian..Catholics love the traditions of religiosity…like the Pharisee’s did….They use Father..the Robes and frocks..Pope waves the hand…bows..kisses rings….Beads….Vatican riddled with criminal past..be it money..sexual perversion…murder of infidels in the past..(wars..some justified…..biblical)…. Assumption of.Mary.. ………Eucharist violations..almost worshiping a ritual……..these are just some of the problems Catholics have..they have to explain everything thats done..and we do NOT buy the excuses you CONTINUE to make to justify the confusing ”doctrine” meshed with traditions and rituals..a child should be able to understand the simple gospel…Yes..Milk first..but you start with a rare MEAT…The Latin is still spoken in many instances……I read many things John has said here..He’s fully Catholic and will divide the word to fit CATHOLICISM..to impress..I have dealt with the zealotry within denominations who explain away everything till no point is left! That is why I see many Catholics leave and NEVER return to Christ..Look at past proclamations of Popes..and ACTS ..this .just should open some eyes to the ever changing ‘gospel” of a church that simply will not let go of ritualism,,,,foolish traditions and unsound doctrine all blended together to become a Universal embarrassment to the simplicity Jesus TAUGHT and should BE UNDERSTOOD so those who refuse do so… Knowing the truth and walk away…!….Embarrassment..?? Watch YOUR Pope explain away the past..AND NOW!..by saying..pray for me………..won’t work anymore… ..and I love Catholics..and yes they are Christians..if they believe IN JESUS……..Point is..take off all the coats..summers here….;)
Tou can say, you are a follower of Jesus Christ. I have never been called a Protestant. I was baptized catholic and do not consider myself catholic. I was born again and will be baptized as an adult because now i know what it means. That i am a follower of Jesus Christ.
finally someone gets it
Your comments about “born again” and baptism as an adult is a major difference between my Catholic beliefs and you “protesters”. The reason I always say the I am Catholic is because in America, the word “Christian” has become to mean an evangelical fundamentalist protestant. I want to distance myself from those types of people. Because of the rampant anti-Catholic stances of many Americans, I disagree with everything the evangelicals stand for. I do not like those people at all. The evangelical protestant is, in my mind, “The American Taliban:.
Catholics are absolutely Christians! And we believe (and attest openly at every single mass) that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, who died on the cross for ALL of us sinners (yes, that means you, and me), and rose from the dead after 3 days, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. We read from the Old and New Testament (which align with the KJV Bible). Our “houses” are very old, like grandma’s and grandpa’s house after a very long time, and some of our things and ways are old and dusty and may seem odd. But we are devote followers of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Please do not try to take that away from us.
Well Tim, I was raised Catholic and hated it because all I saw was hypocrisy. So I became atheist, and then agnostic. Then oneday I ended up in a church to please a girlfriend and realized Jesus was real! I accepted Him as my Lord and Savior and my life has never been the same. My church isn’t perfect either, but now I know God. My wife’s grandmother just passed away and she was Catholic. I absolutely believe she is in Heaven right now having a BLAST! I wish the churches would quit arguing. I do agree though that the Catholic church has way too many man made traditions outside of the Bible for me to ever go back to it. That’s not an attempt to bash, it’s just how I really see it. We’re all people who are imperfect and need Jesus. That’s it. God bless you sir! I hope you have a great day!
I appreciate your difficulties and your comment. Still, there are some serious issues which should be addressed:
Have you considered that, lacking traditions, you’re lacking truth? Lacking a continuous body of people back to the apostles, you’re lacking the sense of the whole faith, which God has chosen to share only through people?
Please note that this is respect. If my goal were polemics, it would by imitating the example of Christ: Unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you.
Now that you are awake, it is time to come back. Please come back. We need you; you need us.
Benjamin…Jesus angered the Jewish leaders because He pointed out how they burdened the people with added requirements, and their concern with tradition and the “letter”of the law but did not practice the “heart” of the law. When a person proclaims Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he is saved by the blood of Christ! Nothing else has to be added to the work of Christ. I do take exception to that I take communion in remembrance of Jesus death, and was baptized as a public witness of being born of the Spirit as a result of my faith…NOT because of anything I did…not of works! If you want to help point people to a saving faith in Christ, don’t complicate it .
amen
WelL said!
Why is it that catholic warship mary….it say in the bible to warship God i found nothing about warshiping Mary or the rosory….statues are worship by catholics….that against the bible…they claim to see mother mary…it says in the bible to beware of the devil he will smell like a rose how do u know its her n not the devil….guess u didnt read that in the bible and u never thought of that….why pray to the saints wen to can pray right to God….it says in the bible to repent be born again catholic dont do that they they confess to a priest why its to confess to Jesus no vessels are needed….priest molest little boys sad…its a religion like anything u do on a regular bases…where is ur relationship with Jesus…that is what i have its an amazing to b close to Jesus….maybe catholics should let go of all the hocus pocus and try a relationship….
First of all what you say is ignorant and your religion is an off shoot from ours we worship the holy trinity you know father son holy spirit we pray to Mary and saints because we look for guidance on how to be a sinless person like mary. To call our religion hocus pocus is rediculous I’ve know and prayed to jesus my whole life you were born again I dont presume to know what you guys do in your church you shouldn’t either about ours. Btw I think it is a great thing how devout you are to Christ and god bless you for it but dont presume your religion is the only right one because you have no right to judge our religion was founded by JESUS and we worship him and his father God or Yahweh his Hebrew name learn a little before you call our practices hocus pocus.
Justian why go through mary for guidance show me in the bible that u go through mary for guidance….u cant….i dont have a religion i have a personal relationship with Jesus….it does say in the bible not to worship anyone but God confess to Jesus it say nothing in the bible of confessing to a priest or father of a church….i am not judging u i know what they bible says n doesnt say….fact….guess when ur lucky enough to know what the new tesament says n the red zone which is the words of Jesus then there is understanding…u show me in what verse that say not to b born again where does it say anything about a rosory….where does it say u need mary for guidance….she needed her son to save her too…beleive that would make her a sinner….she had other children it says that in the bible….and how do u know that the images are not the devil…where is the proof that its not the enemy????
The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the only human to walk the earth sinless. No other, not even mother Mary, or the Saints were sinless. The bible states: (Rom 3:23 KJV) “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”mtherefore, to pray to be “sinless” is not exactly a bad or wrong thing to do, but you and I, according to the bible, will always be sinners. That is we we need repentance through Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior, not mother Mary. It is not wrong to ask Mary, or angles/saints, for guidance. But our prayers are heard by God, and we must pray to him. Brothers and Sisters, truthfully, it is God who answers prayers, not mother Mary. It was Roman Christians who founded the Roman Catholic Church, Jesus himself did not create the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible describes the “church” as a group of people who are followers of Christ, not a specific sect. or denomination of religion. Matthew chapter 15 says: 8 ‘These people honor me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me.9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men’.”
Many of the Roman Catholic church’s traditions and customs were founded by men (Roman men), and they themselves were not holy, perhaps righteous; but not holy, for only Christ is holy. Also, the church itself is not holy, not even the pope. This is verified from historical events such as the Jewish Inquisition, however the Catholic church has changed since 1492, but still, it and Protestant churches are not holy, it is the one who they follow who is Holy.
Brothers and sisters in Christ, this is not a rant or a put down of the Catholic church… It is a warning from a fellow christian.
Catholics: do not become infactuated with the man made traditions/customs of the Roman Church. Instead, infactuate your hearts with Jesus Christ and his love. Repent and pray to Him. Be BAPTIZED as Christ commanded if you can; if for some reason you cannot be baptized, God is all knowing and understanding, so it is most important that you accept him into your heart. You must make sure that the old customs of the church do not overshadow Gods love and his will.
Protestants: All christians are brothers and sisters, including Catholic church members. All people are created equal in the image of God. Jesus did not found the Protestant churches either, where many of them also have some man made customs, which cannot be allowed to lead to vain worship.
Catholics and Protestants must treat eachother with respect and equality, for we are all sinners and many of us are Christians. I say many, instead of all, because there are some of you, protestant and catholic, who have accepted tradition and custom instead of the faith of christianity. Let us not be blinded by our differing customs, but come together as one body of Christ to share his grace and love!
AMEN…Christ said, “No one comes to the Father except by Me.” Christ is our author and transport! Christ IS the bridge. These “saints” didn’t die on the cross, they were not worthy, they were not perfect. ONLY Christ (the pascal lamb that year) was worthy to take on sin. If blood from an animal or just any blood was sufficient, there would be no need for the cross. The only one who can intercede to God is Christ. Saints had sin, how could they possibly be a bridge to God. They were not any better than us! The bible says the Spirit maketh intersession with groanings that cannot be uttered!! Cathlics demonstrate, okay LORD, good job at the cross, but the other sin we will take care of! Where is the “died once for ALL sin?” That demonstrates NO EARTHLY being is exaulted! The Christian life is that of surrender and obedience. A look at what a Christian is: Christ said, “broad is the gate and wide is the road which lead to destruction and many will enter. Narrow is the road and hard is the way to eternal life and few who go there in.” In front of the narrow road is a cross!! Christ said, “if you are going to be my follower, you must deny self, pick up your cross and follow me.” He took the cross, so salvation only comes when we have met HIS REQUIREMENT OF FAITH…HE DECIDES, HIS RULES!! If we truly make seek, surely we will find Him. It’s by His grace and mercy by faith, not of our own doing! HE REWARDS those who EARNESTLY SEEK HIM. He seals those with the Spirit. One does not have a chance until they realize it’s through Christ ONLY! The bible from beginning to end points to Christ, Our propitiation, our author, our transport in Jesus! “For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved other than the name of Jesus.” HOW ON EARTH CAN ANY SAINT BRIDGE OUR WAY TO GOD!!?? One is not saved until they are sealed by His Spirit, no one! Religion IS NOT CHURCH!! Religion gets in the way of exalting Christ. If one prays to anything or person other than Christ, that demonstrates Christ as not being exalted and lifted up…He will never forgive one until that person exhaults CHRIST as savior and lives for Him!! For these who pray to others, please, don’t waste much time, dust off your feet and witness to those who are receptive!!! Even most who call themselves Christian’s DO NOT make Him LORD IN THEIR LIFE, they just think so! all of these worldly ways of thinking is false salvation. Making Him LORD MEANS I FOLLOW and O B E Y!! To live for Him is to suffer because of His name. That means surrendering worldly ways ie; drinking, tobacco use, gambling, cursing, etc. The rules: the body is a temple, don’t put anything inside other than necessary food, NECESSARY LIQUID and medication. How to think; does your thought bring glory to God!? Do you act and walk like a follower of Christ!? DO thinks we read and watch bring glory to God!? Do we deny our personal wants, can we sell out on our person wants and desires of this visual and physical world and LIVE FOR HIM, TRULY MAKING HIM LORD TO GOVERN OVER EVERYTHING WE THINK AND DO IN OUR LIVES!!!?? This IS THE “PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME!” Yes, the kind of follow which MOST CAN’T DO!! This exact place of execution. ..easy to proclaim being a follower, lip service only, false salvation only!!! What about living in obedience, CAUSE ANY THING LESS WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN!!! doesn’t mean we won’t sin, it is the true heart and avid seeker He desires. Any different approach and one will not be a Child of God!!!
Mary you are so bereft of thought …it slays me. If Adam and Eve were created sinless, why not again with Mary? Can Jesus physically indwell in a sinful person? Sheesh!!
“A bad tree does not produce good fruit”.
And the bible says “confess ye one another”. That means to each other, not Jesus…Now who would you trust other than someone who promises to keep the confessional private? Admitting you have done wrong to another is 10 times more difficult.
Also tell me where it says in the bible the devil will smell like a rose..
We do not worship statues anymore than you worship your family pictures on the wall.
So how many times has your church been divided up? Let’s see…a “house divided cannot stand”…Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Mormon, Baptist, Evangel, Seventh Day Adventist, Episcopalian, etc..
For you to deny that Jesus gave the keys to His church to Peter, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it…is to say Jesus lied about that.
Go read your Gospels…this time with prayer for insight.
Mary Smith is right. For Jesus Christ himself said there would be false Christianity. I bet Satan is deceiving people into believing the Roman Catholic Chruch. For Catholics worship false gods and not God. But you Catholics are still loved by God, even though you believe in heresy. I still love you Catholics, for I need to love my Neighbor as myself. Please, I want all of us to go to heaven, but faith alone in Christ, as it is said in the Bible, is all we need. If you Catholics have read the Bible, it says right there. If you don’t believe, then you are calling God a liar becuase he himself said it.
Where do you see the words “faith alone” in the bible? I’m not disputing justification by faith, its a teaching of the Catholic Church, but those words are not actually in the Bible. And the Bible exists because the Catholic Church protected it for 1500 years before your heresy was invented. The Bible actually says that Satan will never prevail over the Church–the tides of hell will not overcome it. So your claim that Satan somehow is behind the Church and is promoting Catholic faith is… bizarre.
Elaine. Just a thought on your reply here. Sure Adam and Eve were created sinless however you know what happened then I’m sure. So with the notion you’re putting out about Mary being sinless because a bad tree cannot produce good fruit, that would make us all sinless ( of course I don’t believe this). But by you saying that Mary was a good tree, this would mean that she began as good fruit. which would in turn mean that because she was good and holy and sinless, she must also have dwell in a sinless person. So by that line of thought, because her roots are traced back to at least Noah, that would mean this would have had to be a sinless line through and through. And since we are all descendants of Noah ( btw I realize we are descendants of Adam and Eve), that would make us all sinless hence not in need of saving. Now you and I, whilst on different sides of the Catholic Protestant fence, both see the problem with this.
As far as this Catholic Protestant age old dispute, the enemy couldn’t be happier. A house divided against itself makes it too easy for him. Sure were different but still we are of the same body that Jesus Christ is the head of. It is our job to edify each other as such because when the body turns on itself, it is its own demise.
Brandon, thank you for sharing your testimony. I love to hear how God just changes the heart! We are to share the gospel, but only God can change the heart. You have blessed me !
man made traditions are fine as long as they don’t violate Scripture. Try to remember that the early Church functioned using tradition. The New Testament hadn’t been written nor compiled for a long time after the death and resurrection of Christ. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura seems invalid when u look at it that way. They problem w/the traditions in the Church stem from Protestant interpretations of these traditions in relation to Scripture…
Albert, if we can not trust scripture, then we have nothing! You stated theNew Testament was compiled “long after Christ’s death”..in fact, you should already know this, but the first four gospels were written by those who walked with Jesus before and after His resurrection . Paul SAW Christ in a blinding light and was changed , thus all his writings , with acts being compiled by Luke. The Bible has been found dependable many times over through much scrutiny and criticism. So, yes, scripture is our litmus test and standard.
While I accept Holy Scripture as divinely inspired and the Word of God, it isn’t true that if we don’t have scripture, we have nothing. To give just one obvious example, the thief on the cross didn’t have scripture — it is in fact faith, not scripture, through which we are sanctified.
More to the point, as an historian of early Christianity, I can tell you that it is not true that the four gospels were written by eye witnesses of Jesus. Indeed, none of them claim to be written by eye witnesses. All four are anonymous (the names were attached later based on tradition — we have some fragments from Papias preserved in the writings if Irenaus, Eusebius, and Jerome that suggest how these traditions developed). There is also internal evidence that the earliest written gospel, Mark, was written some 40 years after the crucifixion of Jesus (though its author undoubtedly incorporated some earlier sources, probably both oral and written). Luke (the subject of my phd thesis) in its canonical form was probably not written until the first third of the second century (an early form of Luke was probably in circulation by about 80 AD, but the final canonical form is a revision that includes details that helped refute the Marcionite heresy). No attempt to compile the various books of the New Testament into a singular canon was made until the mid second century, and the process was not completed until the fourth century.
Early authorship by eye witnesses is not what makes the books of the New Testament Holy Scripture — rather, it is inspiration by the Holy Spirit.
As for Paul — yes, he had a resurrection experience (though there are some differences between the way he describes it himself and the way it is described in the second-century Acts — but these aren’t really relevant for this discussion). But his letters were not collected and circulated until well after his death, which means the earliest Christian communities would be lucky to have one or two letters (indeed, there was a point when the very earliest communities only had the single letter addressed to them). The first attempt to publish a single text that combined several letters of Paul was undertaken by the arch-heretic Marcion in the second century.
I don’t disagree that the Bible is the standard of faith (though obviously I also believe that God guides the church, and thus Holy Tradition is another source of revelation — though since they both come from God, Scripture and Tradition will never contradict). But to say it is the *only* standard of faith is a claim that it itself never makes (and thus would fail your own test, namely that all doctrines should be found in Scripture). It also has logical problems — during the first four centuries of the Church, when there was an open controversy about which books belonged in the Bible, that debate could obviously not be settled by appealing to the Bible itself. Rather, guidance from the Holy Spirit (i.e., Holy Tradition) enabled the early church leaders to determine which books were authentically inspired by God and which were not.
Ah! The point is ,as you say, scripture is the inspired word of God; therefore, doctrine and practice should be in accordance with it. Of coarse a person does not need scripture to be saved, as that is a matter of the heart. But we do need scripture to learn the will of God and to grow in understanding of our faith. Scripture has stood the tests of much scrutiny and criticism, it is dependable.
I still can’t see how you can say the gospels were not written by eye witnesses. Peter was a witness, John was a witness…what about James? Someone who actually walked with Jesus, came to the empty tomb, saw the miracles , saw the resurrected Christ gave the accounts. Just because it took many years to collect all the letters and writings that were distributed over all the regions of the new church, does not invalidate it….the witnesses were still alive within this time period. As far as the Roman Catholic church tradition, I do not agree that the Pope and rest of the hierarchy are infallible. Non of the people used by God in the OT or NT ( except Jesus) were infallible. They were all sinners. I agree with the stance that the church is subject to the canon, as the canon is “God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). As Paul said, ” All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3: 16-17). The following is a quote from the book “Seven reasons why You Can Trust The Bible”, by Erwin W. Lutzer : ” Just as Christ appealed to Old Testament Scripture and studiously avoided the traditions of the Pharisees, so we must adhere to the teachings of New Testament and avoid traditions that add to the Word of God. Catholic traditions function exactly like Jewish traditions of the Talmud: the tradition becomes the standard by which the Scripture is interpreted. Sola scriptura does not teach that everything Christ or the apostles ever did or taught is in the Bible, but rather that everything that is necessary for salvation and Christian living is found in the Bible; we need neither tradition nor further revelation. Certainly we can benefit from what others have taught about the Bible and its relevance to life. God has given teachers to the church, and we are derelict if we neglect them. But everything must be tested by the Book. We say with Isaiah, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn” (Isaiah 8:20) ” I do not think I will be changing your mind, just clarifying the non Catholic point of view.
There is no (canonical) gospel attributed to Peter, or to James. (The epistles attributed to Peter and James also almost certainly were not authored by Peter the apostle or James the brother of the Lord, though that is not really germane to the point about the gospels). John the apostle was an eyewitness, but he was not the author of the fourth gospel, which, like the other three, are anonymous (the titles were added later and do not appear in the ancient manuscripts). I’m not saying that eye-witnesses didn’t exist — the only way that would be possible is if Jesus didn’t exist. I’m just saying that they were more than a generation removed from the *written* *gospel* record.
I certainly am not arguing that the Bible is invalid — it is the inspired Word of God. But it was not written by eyewitnesses, nor was it edited or compiled by its human authors. Its trustworthiness derives from the fact that the universal Church recognized the sacred and divinely inspired nature of the books that it canonized through Holy Tradition. Indeed, there is no reason to believe that something written by eyewitnesses would be more trustworthy than Holy Scripture — it would undoubtedly be less so. We know from the gospels that just about everyone that was an eyewitness failed to understand the significance of what Jesus was saying and doing. We trust not the people that saw with their eyes, but those who believed with their hearts and were inspired by the Holy Spirit, as were the prophets before them.
We do not teach that Rome or the pope are infallible. The doctrine of papal infallibility is much misunderstood and does not mean what most uninformed people think that it means. The idea that we should avoid tradition, however, is hard for me to comprehend. Holy Tradition is how the Bible itself was preserved — if you trust God to guide the Church to faithfully reproduce the Bible, why would God not protect the Church from falling into other grave error? It seems illogical. I trust God to safeguard His Holy Church, which He promised would never fall away: the gates of Hell will never overcome His Church. We might quibble about what is meant by the word “church,” but it is undeniable that there were vast periods of time where the novel doctrines invented by Luther, Calvin, and the other reformers were not held by a single Christian. That only leaves the institutional Church, for which we must thank God.
Undoubtedly you believe doctrines that are not explicitly laid out in Scripture. If you are a Christian, then by definition you accept the Nicene Creed (not because it is the Nicene Creed, but because it is True). This is why, for example, we don’t consider Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses to be Christian. The ancient creeds — Nicene, Apostle’s, and Athanasian — clarify and distil the core doctrines of scripture (which we cannot trust individuals to accurately interpret on their own, or else there wouldn’t be ten thousand different sects of protestantism, each with their own distinctive interpretations). The earliest Christian communities, back when Paul was organizing and evangelizing, had no scripture, but they had early creeds (some of which we can see reproduced in the Pauline corpus, e.g., I Corinthians 15:3-7).
These things have been debated for centuries. I do know that the people that walked with Jesus were witness to what He said and did, and they either wrote these accounts down themselves, or they told others who wrote these things down. Many experts have gone over all the material and have figured out who is the most likely to be the author of each gospel, as well as the letters and other writings of the NT. How could all the details that were documented ( not everything said or done, but many!) exist if not from eyewitnesses? Not logical. Because the first century church was persecuted and spread over many regions, it was quite a task to gather all this data together. I have read that there is much more evidence to support the Bible than any other ancient and even newer books. Just to say, I accept the Bible as it has been put together, and am glad to have the information in the study Bible I have, that explains about each book and the controversies and debates about authorship, etc. Yes I accept and agree with The Apostle’s Creed and The Nicene Creed. As always, enjoy these conversations, and my God’s peace be with you.
The Bible contains those so-called man made traditions that the Catholic Church is accused of adding!!!! They are what Jesus instituted and gave to HIS Church. Read your Bibles closer, and get the correct Bible, not one that’s had at least 5 other hands in it. Do your research on the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church, and come home to the Father through Christ and His Church.
Hi Carol K, If Catholics fully believe that the Bible is God’s Word, then the traditions you practice should be supported by Scripture. Neither the OT nor NT Jews prayed to ( or asked to pray with) the departed believers….Scripture does not reveal a practice of calling on the departed Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Moses or any of the prophets; so how can the RC Church practice the “veneration” of Mary and other departed people….no matter the rationalization, it really is idol worship and takes glory away from God where it belongs. If it is not backed by God’s Holy Word, then it should be re examined by you, the participant. Jesus specifically instructed His followers to pray to “Our Father who is in heaven”, not to ask His mother, nor any other departed person to be our mediator…..Hebrews and Romans clearly tells us that Jesus the Christ is our mediator…also the Holy Spirit interprets our prayers to the Father. Keep what is true, and get rid of the rest. False doctrine can creep in anywhere, as illustrated in the first century church. Paul in his letters to the churches warned them to be alert for these false teachers and practices….nothing has changed!
Yes Brandon! The Church has traditions. 2,000 years of traditions and rich in history. To read The Early Church of Our Fathers, it’s to be transported back in history and to find out that the teachings of the Church has not been changed in 2,000 years. Traditions are very important to the Church as all the teachings were transmitted orally from the beginning of Christianity. The Gospels were written based on the traditions (which was one of the criterias the bishops applied to choose the Gospel) of the Church and no all teachings were written in the Gospels. This is why The Bible and Traditions are both important to the Church. To the Church protestants are our Brothers and Sisters in Half Communion whom we have to respect as they follow some Christian teachings from The Church. We all are on our own path!
Brandon, I couldn’t agree more…very well said.
If you pray to Mary, Joseph,St.Paul, my aunt Margaret or any other name under the sun …… You bow or make any idol, statue, prayer bead or any other icon …. you are not obeying the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! The Ten commandments are clear! There is no “holy father” to kiss his hand and bow before him! But the One True and Holy God!!! How simple can it be? Catholics are Idolators! Nuff said!
hey Tim, don’t worry about it. Anyone will get upset if you try to expose anything false about their religion. And catholics have a lot to be upset about. You had a open mind and learnd the truth. Others just want the comfort of thinking everything is ok with their salvation because the priest said so. But at judgment, they wont be able to get the priest to let them in heaven. Its just sad that, as Jesus said, most people are on the wide path.
Please take your anti-biblical, anti-catholic bigotry elsewhere. You have completely misrepresented what Catholics believe. Priests don’t get people into heaven. To speak the way you have betrays a complete lack of understanding of Catholic (or, more generally, Christian) theology. Speak less and listen more, and the grace of the Holy Spirit may yet come upon you.
i have been reading all of this n i still dont get it….why so much trdtion thing n not a relationship with Jesus…..why dont caltholics go by the bible in stead of all the vessels..hail mary hail st jude hail this that and all the other stuff….i go by what is written …tell me where it is written….
The Hail Mary is prayer is taken from the Gospel according to Luke. There is no such thing as “Hail St. Jude” or any of the other things you mentioned. Again, I feel you would have a more fruitful time in dialogue if you wrote in complete sentences and responded to the arguments one by one in the posts written to you. We are praying for you.
When it comes to Christological theology, precision is everything. Christians believe that Jesus, as you say, is 100% God. Therefore, it is incorrect to distinguish between Jesus and God Almighty. You can and should distinguish between Jesus and God the Father, and between Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. However, if you deny that Mary is the Mother of God, you are denying that Jesus is God, or are giving God the Father a higher claim to Godhood than Jesus, which would be heretical and anti-Christian. So, it is right to say that Mary is not the Mother of God the Father — we aren’t patripassianists — but to be a Christian you must acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God (specifically, Mother of God the Son). If it is confusing at all, I highly recommend reading about the heresy of Nestorianism. There is an adequate article on wikipedia on the subject.
Agree,Mary was mother to God the Son in the flesh as Jesus, thus she is known as the mother of God, in this circumstance . And, being human and a sinner, Christ died for her sins as well.
thats what i was trying to say…seems like caltholics r set on religion, tredidtion…ok i eat religiouslyn brush my teeth…i put a xmas tree up tredition….i have a relationship with Jesus…he is the way….i know i dont need vessels to b with the good lord…there has not been one caltholic yet to tell me where in the bible it say where i have to hail mary n do the rosory….i am still waiting for the answer…
Mary, I do understand your questions about Catholic practices. The rosary beads and some other things are not in the Bible, but from what I gather came from the church leadership. It helps to remember that there are many true followers of Christ in the Catholic Church , so they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. While we have differences between us, scripture teaches us to strive for unity. To keep a discussion going to seek understanding, it helps me if I try to be objective and not critical…especially since I do not have any experience in Catholic practices. In the past, I was too emotional when expressing my viewpoint; as a result, I did not think my response through, and people did not want to argue with me…because that is what it was, arguing , not discussing or debating. I appreciate your passion and love of Christ…keep studying His word, I will too!
i have been tought n i believe that mary is the mother of Jesus..not God …God has no mother…God is father n Jesus sits at the right hand of God the father…n also mary was only a virgin at the time of Jesus after t hat she n joesph had a normallife n had other kids…she was also a sinner she needed her son as well as a savior….in the bible it says to confess to Jesus not some guy in a dark box….why r caltholics afraid of a relationship with Jesus….oh one more thing…the images that everyone claims to c of mary….how do u know if its really her n not the de vil… he will foul u n laugh at u u
Mary, if you have been taught to believe that Jesus is not God, you are not a Christian. Mary is Jesus’s mother. If Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God (specifically, mother of God the Son). This has been explained very clearly, I think. If you cannot read and write in complete sentences as I have repeatedly asked, I’m afraid this correspondence cannot continue.
i am a christian very much so….u dont want to answer my questions…..mary was a sinner n need her son to saveher too where in the bible does it say to hail to mary n the rosory….i read n live the bible the best i can…i am human….mary is mother of flesh….Jesus….it says he sits in heaven on the rite side of the father God we have to go through Jesus to get with God…its all in the bible….rosory is not ….read the red zone in the new tesament….oh by the way my fon acts up some times
Mary, I really do not know what else to say to you. I have very thoughtfully responded to every one of your questions, repeatedly. I’m not sure if you are having trouble understanding my responses or if you are just attempting to troll me, but it is getting frustrated. You said you do not believe Jesus is God — hence, you are not a Christian. There is not really much more to it than that. That’s the ultimate question that divides Christianity from non-Christianity: is Jesus God? We Christians say yes. He doesn’t just sit next to God (though He does sit at the right hand of God the Father) — He in fact *is* God. I agree, rosaries aren’t in the Bible. Neither are hymnals, but we Christians use those too.
It’s hard to understand what you are trying to say. I thing you are Taking about the Prayer Hail Mary
“Hail Mary , full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”
HAIL MARY (or Rejoice, Mary)
The greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult the joy he finds in her.
FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE:
These two phrases of the angel’s greetings shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. “Rejoice…O Daughter of Jerusalem…the Lord your God is in your midst.” Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the Glory of the Lord dwells. She is “the dwelling of God…with men.” Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
BLESSED ART YOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS:
After the angel’s greetings we make Elizabeth greetings our own. “Filled with the Holy Spirit”, Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations, who have called Mary “blessed”. “Blessed is she who believe…” Mary is “blessed among women” because she believe in the fullfilment of the Lord’s word. Abraham, because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nation’s of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God’s own blessing: Jesus, the “fruit of thy womb.”
HOLY MARY, MOTHER OF GOD:
With Elizabeth we marvel, “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Because she give us Jesus, her son, Mary is mother of God an our mother. We can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she pray for us as she prayed for herself: “Let it be to me according to your word.” By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her : “Thy Will be done”.
PRAY FOR US SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH:
By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the “Mother of Mercy,” the all-Holy-One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender “the hour of our death” wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son’s death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.
There is no “Hail St. Jude” prayer in The Church. Also, we don’t pray the Hail Mary during Mass service . During Mass service The Church worships and praise God. One of my favorite Praises is Glory:
Glory to God in the highest,
and on Earth peace to people of good will. We praise You, we bless You, we adore You, we glorify You, we give You thanks for your great Glory.
Lord God, heavenly King, O God, almighty Father. Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son. Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father.
You take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; You take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.
You are seated at the right hand of the father, have mercy on us. For you alone are the Holy One, You alone are the Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen!
Another one is Sanctus:
Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts.
Heaven are Earth are full of your Glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.
Blessings to everyone !!!
ive been reading most of the comments, on both sides. I go to a non denominational church, don’t pick sides have herd stoties from my parents grandparents of the old church in eourpe, of who the came to america to be free to worship. something i take for granted , but anyway our chruce we have many who came from catholic and prodestant and luthren even muslim background. We try not to but others done rather give the simple gosspel of our Lord jesus and let the gosspel speak for itself. We can argue till were blue in the face and loss the opertunity to share Christ to others. You are both right apout Mary who gave birth o Christ, and the mother of Christ can,t split him in half to say was born of fleash of christ or to say was born of son of god . Jesus came as a man to take all our sin all our shame and brought it to the cross and wased are sins away ,all that belive him confess Him will have everlasting live, We know mary was great to except this high privliage to be the mother of the son of God but was by nothing she did she said in Luke1:38 behold iam the servent of the Lord: let it be according to youre word. She saw her self as only a servant. Lets not seek her but rather seek Jesus who hold all truth all love all mercy and grace, takes faith to belive this not knoledge. Im soory for my spelling my shortcomming. May you have a bleesed day
For all the good propaganda that the Catholic Church and its biblically illiterate members spew a prayful reading of the Bible will make a true believer dump Catholicism and all its anti~Christian baggage faster than I can say, ” read Dr. Cooper’s “Authanticity of the Gosples” (New Testament) before you heed any of this much too oft parroted crap about” the New Testament not being writen by eyewitnesses” by psudo intelectuals and ” historians of ——” who cant (using primary souces documents or artifacts) back up a dame thing that they say. ”
Ps you can’t believe that The Catholic Church is of God and that the Bible is the Word of God at the same time , for the two controdict each other on matters pertaing to salvation and godliness (Christian living.)
Well, I don’t see how you can you believe what you just spewed if you believe the Bible is the Word of God. Most books of the New Testament make no claim to having been written by eyewitnesses. Certainly no where in any of the books is there a claim that the canon was assembled by an eyewitness, or even an idea of which books belong in the canon. I would suggest you spend less time bashing Catholicism and more time reading your Bible. Trust me, it is a lot better than anything written by “Dr. Cooper,” whoever he is (having a doctorate myself, I’m not too impressed by the appelation of Dr., especially to a vaguely identified person I don’t know).
Protestants may ague that the Catholic church has lost its way from the apostles. But they are ignoring the words of Jesus in Matthew 16;19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Thank you Matthew and Nana for your reasoned and thoughtful responses in defense of the Faith. To those who keep saying Mary is a sinner like us – no. Many non-Catholic Christians have a misunderstanding of the Immaculate Conception. The Blessed Mother was conceived without sin. That is a basic tenet of our faith.
After Jesus had declared that He would build His church on the truth of Peter’s noble confession, He went on to say, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” ( Matthew 16:19 ). Later, addressing all the disciples, our Lord repeated the words, “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” ( Matthew 18:18 ).
Jesus gave Peter “the keys of the kingdom of heaven,” not the keys to heaven.1 A key was a badge of authority ( Luke 11:52 ), and then as now was used to open doors. Peter used the keys Christ gave him to open the door to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost ( Acts 2 ), to the Samaritans after the preaching of Philip ( Acts 8:14-17 ), and to the Gentiles after the Lord had sent him a vision and an appeal from Cornelius ( Acts 10 ).
The concept of “binding and loosing” found in Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18 was commonly used among the Jewish people in relation to the authority of the rabbis to forbid and permit certain practices. Jesus gave Peter and the apostles authority over both the doctrine and practices of the first-century church. Through the leading of the Holy Spirit, they would be given wisdom to know what to forbid and what to permit….Look at history of Popes..and defend your doctrine? Defend the ACTS of the CC…The churches of God existed BEFORE the CC..came about..It existed at the time of the COUNCILS when CC was formed..it exists now….therefore…CC Claims to be The Mother Church….yet the primitive churches are still here..there never protested the CC..therefore they are notPROTESTANTS..regarding Martin Luthers act…they simply were from the beginning churches who taught the gospel..during the time of ST Paul…
Peter, for himself and his brethren, said that they were assured of our Lord’s being the promised Messiah, the Son of the living God. This showed that they believed Jesus to be more than man. Our Lord declared Peter to be blessed, as the teaching of God made him differ from his unbelieving countrymen. Christ added that he had named him Peter, in allusion to his stability or firmness in professing the truth. The word translated rock, is not the same word as Peter, but is of a similar meaning. Nothing can be more wrong than to suppose that Christ meant the person of Peter was the rock. Without doubt Christ himself is the Rock, the tried foundation of the church; and woe to him that attempts to lay any other! Peter’s confession is this rock as to doctrine. If Jesus be not the Christ, those that own him are not of the church, but deceivers and deceived. Our Lord next declared the authority with which Peter would be invested. He spoke in the name of his brethren, and this related to them as well as to him. They had no certain knowledge of the characters of men, and were liable to mistakes and sins in their own conduct; but they were kept from error in stating the way of acceptance and salvation, the rule of obedience, the believer’s character and experience, and the final doom of unbelievers and hypocrites. In such matters their decision was right, and it was confirmed in heaven. But all pretensions of any man, either to absolve or retain men’s sins, are blasphemous and absurd. None can forgive sins but God only. And this binding and loosing, in the common language of the Jews, signified to forbid and to allow, or to teach what is lawful or unlawful.
NOTE: this is to the catholic church primarily, but also to all churches. many “protestant” issues are also addressed here as well. I am Methodist, although i don’t know why it would matter.
So, where do I begin? with the issues that ALL churches have: people who believe the are perfect. How can anyone claim to be of Christ (who said NO ONE was perfect, NOT EVEN THE SAINTS) and then say they are sinless. while witnessing to another sinner. It comes across as ” Hi, I’m a Christian who perfectly follows God’s commands and you are a dirty, ungrateful sinner who needs desperate help. Wanna hear about Jesus? first let’s pray to his human mother!!!”-this was bluntly put how the world sees Christians(it has become a stereotype) when we do that. this goes along with “You didn’t accept Christ, so now i will murder you and still be sinless.” that one was common in the old world, not just with Catholics, but with puritans, and so many more. It’s really attractive, right? WRONG.
So how should we be? well here is a list:
1) Pray to God ALONE
2) Imitate Jesus by being a servant, forgiving, and merciful, full of grace. because all have sinned.
3) DO NOT GIVE THE GLORY OF THE LORD TO THE SAINTS OR TO MARY!!!!!!! You degrade THE LORD GOD when you pray to them, because prayer is a form of WORSHIP. He wouldn’t let MOSES enter the promised land for misrepresenting him, imagine degrading his Glory!!!
4) Your religious practices. they should become more important than the LORD. So give glory to GOD alone. it doesn’t matter if you use music or not.
5) We are supposed to be THE most loving and forgiving people in the world. but the world believes we are the MOST unloving, unforgiving, self-righteous people in the planet(back to that stereotype). we need to fix that.
there are a ton more issues with those who claim to be Christian, and I would have to write a book on it.
forgive the strong wording, but the words of the LORD pierce like a double edge sword. we all have a lot to work on.
No one prays *to* Mary. This has been amply covered in the comments. Please read the full comment thread before posting.
Greetings brother Tim Farber,
I’m 68 year old Mixed Race American born Catholic raised with all that old school Catholic Catechism and nuns etc.
And there are things I don’t agree with about Catholicism but I’m fortunate enough to attend a Catholic Church where we can discuss doctrine and it’s okay.
And yes I am aware of all the wrong and negative things that humans have done in the name of the Catholic Church but every religion has participated in murder and conquest in the name of their God.
I am very liberal with no shame and don’t give a damn about how others feel about my Religion, Race, Politics etc and very tolerant because I feel Muslims and Jews and Protestants have the right to worship God as they see fit.
So maybe…just maybe you might need to explore a Roman Catholic Church where Catholics are not so judgemental and want to put you down because of your thoughts.
Sounds like an inquisition because you don’t agree with them.
Good luck
Peace be with you
Lester Dixon
and remember, too – to Pray for the Holy Spirit to strengthen our Church and to bring ALL our departed brothers and Sisters back home, to sit at the Dinner Table the Lord Himself has prepared for us all.
I’m a Gnostic and a Jew. And I go to mass often.
If we want a unified church observe the Sabbath and Jewish laws (like most of the saints) and embrace the truths of New Age religions such as Scientology and Theosophy.
Christ was/is Catholic, Jewish and Gnostic.
Additionally Islam is also in Christ as Mohammed was the return of Judas.
Eastern religions were influenced by Christ and are as Gnostic as Protestants are Catholic.
Tim Farber here, I was hoping there would be some deep and serious discussion on this very important and timely topic. If you read my above post in responce to the article you would see that I have some very deep feelings about this topic that go back a number of decades. I believe that Richard Chasen’s post has got to be an attempt at humor and/or sarcasm. The apostles Paul’s first real doctrinal correction was about Jew legalism found in the book of Galations and the 2nd was about the Gnostics found in the book of Colosians.
I know this is over a year old but your above post hit the nail on the head. The traditions of the Holy Roman Catholic Church were destroyed with the sledgehammer blows that smashed the Tridentine altars. I realized this coming back into the church in 2011. I was expecting the beauty and holiness of the church that my grandmother had told me of. What I got was not beautiful or holy.
It turns out that conservatives are criticized for wanting reverence and respect for the house of the lord. People are degraded and criticized for wanting traditional music or sacred silence instead of drums, “On Eagles Wings” and “America the Beautiful”. When I came back “home” in 2011 I decided to go through RCIA. I was expecting that our class would be taught by a priest or someone else with orders. Nope and I really shouldn’t get into how I feel about the improperly trained “catechist”. Anyway, I was told that I couldn’t kneel to take the body and blood of Christ because the catechist said it was “showing off”. I’m honestly just tired now. I don’t even want to continue writing this because of how much pain the current status of the church has caused me. I was depressed for so long.
Instead of leaving I resolved to try and change it. I started by trying to become an acolyte (the fact I said the correct title instead of altar server put the priest off) and also started a schola to teach others Latin and plainchant. This was not received well by the guitar players, pianist, clarinet players, and tambourine banger. They had more of a voice than the “East Texas heretic” (me). Even though I am a classically trained vocalist (two years with a university choir) and had the written permission of two fathers- none of the five parishes in my community would allow us to chant at ANY mass. I later found out that our Monsignor went to the Bishop about me with concern that I was becoming overzealous and possibly associated with the SSPX. Which by the way had a chapel just right down the road…120 miles away!
I tried my hardest to be a good Catholic, but then I realized that a good Catholic just sits in the pew. A good Catholic doesn’t question, even when the church LITERALLY turns itself from God to face man. A good Catholic doesn’t question when the church encourages liturgical abuse for the sake of ecumenism. A good Catholic empties his pockets and keeps his mouth shut.
I spent too many nights in tearful prayer and too many masses shunned before I realized my error. I wasn’t wrong for wanting the proper reverence for the house that Christ presents Himself in. I wasn’t wrong to listen to over fifteen hundred years of doctrine instead of forty years of ultra liberal heresy. I wasn’t wrong to want RESPECT in the daily worship of GOD! There is a place that still cares about respecting the Lord…it’s called Holy Orthodoxy.
The Eastern Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church and gives our Lord God the respect and whole hearten admiration our savior deserves. No 45 minute masses, no guitars or drum sets, and no dirty looks for doing something “wrong”. This is God’s Church.
I’m finally home and I urge all of my brethren to come home to Holy Orthodoxy. Remember, “Quo Primum” (Promulgating the Tridentine Liturgy) written by Pope St. Pius V forbade changing the mass. We were all warned so many times.
There is no need to leave the Church to find reverence in liturgy. Setting aside for a moment all those secular and religious clergy who do not use praise bands, there are whole fraternities of priests who make reverence in liturgy a point of their charism. Have you heard of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter? Have you heard of the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius? Have you heard of the Institute of Christ the King? Or the Institute of the Good Shepherd?
There are also at least two lay organizations you should know: The Church Music Association of America and Corpus Christi Watershed.
Renewal is not just coming. Renewal is here.
The proper response to perceived apostasy is not to commit apostasy. Come on. And there is a difference between orthodoxy — ‘right belief,’ something we strongly believe in in the Roman Catholic Church — and orthopraxy, or ‘right practice,’ which as our Holy Father emeritus and our Holy Father have repeatedly taught, is silly to insist upon. There are faithful churches that offer the Tridentine mass. Eastern Orthodox Churches do not (though the liturgy of John Chrysostom which they do offer is quite beautiful). It sounds like you were in a parish that you didn’t like and you responded by departing from Christ’s holy church, built on the rock Peter. I’m nonplussed.
I agree with you about the liturgical abuses; however, there are other options besides going Orthodox. Seek out Tridentine masses. They are now offered in most major cities nd/or Eastern Catholic churches which use the Orthodox liturgy but are in communion with Rome.
Sounds to me that you should work on your humility. In every Catholic Church I’ve been a member (I have live in 8 estates) never encounter that kind of problems.
I do agree that many people who consider themselves Catholic, are also Christian…no matter what group of people we attend church with, some will not truely be believers. Paul sums it up in Romans 10:9 ” if you confess with your mouth, that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.” The actions of Catholics that I do not understand, include the praying to “saints” who where people like us, not omniscient or omnipresent like God is.; nor do I believe they can hear our prayers…only God hears our prayers. Scripture tells us that Christ is our priest & King for ever…we pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus , God the Son in the power of God the Spirit. So, we can love each other as family , and have discussions about these things.
Patricia, haven’t you ever asked someone to pray for you? That’s what we do with saints. It’s that simple. We don’t worship them. In fairness, as the article has indicated, some Catholics in name only perpetuate this prejudice. Same with the prejudice about Mary. Why not ask the Mother of God to pray for you?
No where in the Bible are we instructed TO pray to the dead, or FOR the dead. Jesus instructed His disciples to pray to our heavenly Father. We do not need any intermediaries….Jesus IS our priest …as the book of Hebrews explains, our eternal priest. Jesus never said we should pray to His mother….remember, she was only human, although blessed by being called for an important job. She is with God now, but we should not be praying to her. I believe this is based on scripture. We are to pray in Christ’s name, but not any of the people from the past…..they are not omniscient nor omnipresent like God is…nor do they act as intermediaries for us ( according to scripture.) We need to be careful of adding to what God instructs us to do. And, thank you for talking with me…I can change my mind on some things if I see that Christ told us these things.
I think the issue here is that you keep saying praying TO the Saints as opposed to praying WITH the Saints. When you ask friends to pray for you, you aren’t worshipping them, and their intercessory prayers don’t negate the Omnipotence of God or the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. It also doesn’t mean you are going around Christ as mediator between man and God. You and your friend are pouring your hearts out to the Father through Christ the Son, High Priest and Mediator. The Saints, who aren’t dead but have life abundantly in Heaven, are the same.
Revelation 6:9-10
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Here the martyrs in Heaven not only see what is going on on Earth but also cry out to God in regards to what they’ve seen (prayer)
Dear Josh,
Two quick observations about your comment in Rev. 6, first the Word does not actually say that the martyrs can “see” what is going on down on earth. And secondly it does not actually say that they are receiving the prayers of the saints on earth.
Also the actual words of the slain martyrs are limited to the question of when God will avenge “their” blood.
I have read a number of times that this proves the saints who have gone before us and are now in the presents of the Lord can actually “hear” our prayers and upon hearing them that they will intercede for directly to God since they are in His presence. That is simply NOT what the text says.
This is a very important issue as it is very germane to the question that the article proposes and that is “Do non-catholic, bible reading Christians consider catholics to be true Christians?” And to the greater extent the answer is that they do not. So the nest question is “Why do they do not believe practicing catholics, in good standing with Rome, are not true Christians?”
Tim
After reading a statement by Dr. R.C Sproul , I now see that the most important issue non-Catholic Christians have with the Catholic position is the denial of the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone…thus denying the Gospel itself…that IS a problem. All Catholic Christians should examine the facts for themselves in light of scripture. And, ask the Holy Spirit for discernment and understanding of the truth.
Patricia: Citation? And, please, if you’re going to say, “The Catholic Church teaches” you’re going to find something from a Catholic source.
Hello Ben, Fair enough, I should quote actual Catholic sources if I am to claim what is taught by Catholics. My concerns are the things I know are done that I can not find backed up by scripture; Praying to Mary, ( are some prayers to Mary required when sins are confessed to a priest ?…if so, I don’t see that as based on scripture either.) Praying to anyone other than God in the name of Christ Jesus also concerns me as not backed by scripture. Again as I understand it, the martyred saints and all the departed prophets are not available for us to commune with….and even if they were, why would we want to have them intercede for us when we have The Holy Spirit ? Romans 8:26-27 tells us, ” In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings. And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” Also, as I reported in a previous post, God forbids the attempt to commune with the dead ( necromancy) and forbid asking for help from mediums or sorcerers. When we ask other believers to pray for us, and we pray for them, we are just adding our petitions to theirs, but the Holy Spirit is doing the interpreting/interceding for us…it simply makes no sense that we would even want to ask a departed saint to give our request to God when we already have God’s ear! So, if you can show me where I am mistaken please explain. Thank you.
Elsewhere in this thread is a brief summary of intercession. Suffice it to say, that Catholics use the word “prayer” to describe something which is not always worship. Rather, it is communication by the power of God.
For links, check out this comment.
Christ did, and said many more things than those contained in the New Testament. You should speak to a CAtholic apologist for the Churches opinions on topics that u say that are contrary to the Bible..
Hello Albert, I rely on scripture and also on what I have learned by studying the attributes of God. Some attributes of God He shared with us, ie our emotions and ability to think and reason….however, the attributes of omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience are His alone. God alone is sovereign and all knowing and all powerful…He is the one who can hear our prayers on the other side of the grave, not departed saints. I just have to stand firm on this belief, scripture does not support praying to anyone other than God.
because we have only one mediator between us and the Father and that is Jesus Christ
James 5:16 disagrees. We should ask each other to pray for each other.
Hello Janet, Rick L, Ben, and Bigger…Yes, scripture tells us to pray for ourselves and each other. We have prayer chains and we pray corporately in church and in prayer groups, and with each other before meals , etc. As James 5:16 tells us, we can also confess our sins to one another and pray for forgiveness. The main point I am making here is to Whom we are praying…we are praying to God the Father in the name of Christ Jesus. We are praying for other people still alive in this world , as well as ourselves. We are also told to pray for the lost, as we spread the gospel message ( The Great Commission.)I do believe it is wrong to pray to people/saints who are already in Heaven..we should keep our focus on Jesus Christ who suffered and died for our/my sins so that I can approach God as forgiven. Praying to Mary or any other saints in Heaven diminishes the work of Christ. We have God’s ear through Christ, because we are His ! Yes, Elijah and Moses were seen with Christ when He was transformed on the mountain…in no way is this telling us to pray to them! We will be with them in Heaven too someday ( I’ll be happy with a spot in the back somewhere.) Scripture tells us God forbids us to try to commune with the dead..see LV 19:31, 20:27. In 1 Samuel 28:5-20, king Saul wanted the medium of Endor to contact Samuel the prophet who had died , it did not end well for him. I do realize when you are praying to Mary, or another departed saint, that you are not expecting to see them or hear them…However,your focus is being diverted away from Christ. When you are moved to pray, who do you think of ? The Bible tells us in the book of Hebrews, that we have Jesus Christ as our King, Priest and LORD forever…we need no other.
Dear Benjamin,
Although the passage in James 5 does say that the Christian community here on earth are to “pray” for each other it does not teach that we, or anyone in the communion of saints, living or dead, have the power to be a “mediator”. Only Jesus, the only righteous person to live, has the power to be our Mediator between sinful man and an absolute holy God.
I hope this helps.
Tim
P.S. I can assure you, from my 40 or so years of dealing with non-catholic bible reading Christians at work, college, ect. this issue of praying to the dead is very problematic to them.
If we should do it here on earth, why not the cloud of witnesses in heaven?
For a more detailed justification of intercession of the saints. For an even more detailed justification, check out our tract on the subject.
Also keep in mind that looking to scripture for all things without having a pre-existing sense of the faith is un-Christian, by the earliest understandings of the faith. Denying the communion of the saints comes down to a denial of all historical beliefs Christians have behind the appropriateness of the Incarnation.
Tim, you seem to be missing the point. If you ask your pastor, or your wife, or you neighbor, to pray for you, are they now a ‘mediator’ between you and God the Father in the sense ‘mediator’ is used in 1 Timothy 2:5? Obviously not, right? So then asking a saint in heaven — who, as the anonymous author of Hebrews tells us at the beginning of chapter 12, are a ‘cloud of witnesses’ and not just role models (the point of chapter 11) — does not make that saint a ‘mediator’ between God the Father and man. Now, you might still disagree with the practice, but you can’t disagree with it on the grounds of 1 Timothy 2:5 unless you also think it is wrong to ask your fellow Christians on earth to pray for you. In other words, if asking the saints who have successfully run their race and are in heaven to pray for us is inappropriate, it isn’t because it somehow casts them as a ‘mediator’ in the sense of 1 Timothy 2:5.
I mean, look at the context the second chapter of 1 Timothy. It begins with “I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people.” So clearly, prayers and intercession are not what the author (I do not believe that the pastoral epistles were written by Paul, though they are inspired scripture nonetheless) is talking about when he writes just a few lines later that “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.” The reason why the author emphasizes that there is “one mediator” for all of mankind is to emphasize the *catholicity* of the Christian faith — that is, that unlike any religion before it, Christianity is for all people and not the exclusive province of a national or ethnic or cultural group. That idea is so commonplace now that we tend to forget how radical it was at the time. Moreover, not only can all of humanity be reconciled with God through faith in Jesus, His sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to cover all people — contra Calvin, the atonement is for everyone, as Jesus “gave himself as a ransom for all people” (I always wonder how Calvinists read this and somehow see “gave himself as a ransom for only those people who will be forced by the grace of the Holy Spirit to have faith,” but that’s neither here nor there). Since Jesus is the mediator for everyone, we should pray also for non-Christians (kings in particular). The point of this chapter absolutely is not to proscribe the solicitation of intercessory prayers from anyone, alive or dead.
In any event — if you are going to continue to use this argument to denigrate intercessory prayer re the communion of saints, you need to explain why when a deceased Christian prays for another, he or she becomes a ‘mediator,’ but when a living Christian prays for another, he or she is not a ‘mediator.’ Otherwise, continuing to use this argument is simply dishonest.
If understood as Catholics generally understand Revelations, certain lines define the role of saints. In a sense praying to a saint, in the Catholic understanding, is asking that saint to pray with you to God. The earliest martyrs of the church we the model for sainthood. They were witnesses, as we the “144 thousand” saints in Revelations were. Since the Apostles and the Virgin Mary etc were viewed also as providing witness to Christ (and the Apostles in any event were all martyrs) they were counted as saints by popular acclaim. Later the church found it necessary to provide a more formal process of review for other proposed saints. Saints were all chosen for lives that bore witness to Christ in some way, and therefor suitable to “pray with us and for us” to God as in Revelations.
I have been thinking about this issue, of the Catholic practice of praying to saints in heaven,since last fall ; The answer now seems so obvious, I am ashamed I didn’t realize it right away! The reason we should not pray to departed saints….or “ask” them to pray for us, as I have been told is the correct understanding, IS: The attributes of God ( possessed ONLY by God), which include, omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience. God alone is capable of receiving the prayers of a billion people at once and continually….NO ONE else, but God. Asking our fellow humans on earth to pray for us is perfectly acceptable, and expected.Consider Matthew 18:19-20 “Again, I assure you:If two of you agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them.” When evangelizing to make new disciples of Christ, it would be wrong to teach them otherwise. Doctrine needs to be in line with scripture.
I don’t think this reasoning follows. If a person on earth can answer a request to pray for you without having the nature of God, then there is no reason to believe that a saint in heaven — and, importantly, outside of the material universe, and thus free of the dimensions of time and space — would somehow be *more* limited than a living material body on earth. So, a fortiori, it seems like what you are suggesting is an impoverished view of salvation, and denying the words of the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, who described the departed saints as a great cloud of witnesses. You are effectively saying that they aren’t capable of witnessing us. Seems unscriptural to me, if nothing else. Certainly there is no scriptural ‘obligation’ to ask for others to pray for you, but to tell a group of Christians in the name of the Bible that they are wrong to do so, offering a theoretical basis that denies scripture in order to do so, seems inappropriate to me.
I’m pretty much speechless. So, if I understand you correctly, you do believe other beings in heaven become like God Almighty! The one verse in scripture mentions “the great cloud of witnesses,” and from that alone you deduce they have the omniscience and omnipresence of God. Asking a living breathing friend to pray for us is not the same. We are praying to God. Through out old and new testaments, prayers were offered to God, not Moses or Elijah or any departed human.Sorry, I think I am on solid ground here.
Well, all I’ve really said is that salvation does not diminish the saved. If they can do something on earth, they don’t become less of a person in heaven. They still pray to God, and they can still pray for those they love. Is there some area of scripture that you believe supports the hypothesis that salvation incapacitates someone?
As for ‘becoming like God,’ I do believe that, to a limited extent, sanctification is about ‘becoming like God.’ We believe that only a divine will can do good, and that when someone worships God, they are doing it only because the Holy Spirit is within their soul. So, someone who worships God is more like God than someone who is lost. And, God made us like Him in the first place by making us in His image. The doctrine of theosis is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, and was even recognized by the most extreme critics of the Church in the Reformation like John Calvin and Martin Luther. It is what sanctification is about. But that doesn’t have much to do with asking Christians to pray for you. One does require grace to pray, but that grace is freely offered to all, which is why we can see people on earth praying for one another. I am having a hard to wrapping my mind around your hypothesis that, by going to heaven, we are somehow less close to God than on earth. That just strikes me as unscriptural, besides going against tradition and reason.
The point has nothing to do with salvation. The point is only God is Omniscient, and omnipresent, and omnipotent;Therefore, Only God can hear the billions of prayers and know the hearts and minds of humanity, at the same time doing everything else that God does continually. We can not communicate to people on the other side of the grave…that is not supported by scripture . We are made in God’s image, and we hope to become more like Christ, in humility and obedience to God’s will, and caring about others….but we never gain God’s attributes. The glory all goes to God, always. We can only pray along side people here with us, and all prayers are directed to our Heavenly Father, just as Jesus taught the disciples. No where in scripture , OT and NT, do the Israelites nor the followers of Christ pray to anyone but God the Father…although Jesus was the first to address God that way, much to the Jewish leaders’ dismay.
Someone in heaven is either aware of events on earth or they aren’t. Scripture suggests that they are. Furthermore, there is absolutely zero scriptural support for the idea that someone in heaven is limited by the dimensions of the material universe. Heaven is spiritual in essence, outside of time and place. So, while I respect your theory about what heaven is like and what the saints can and can’t do in heaven, I think that because of your own scriptural criterion, you should refrain from passing judgments on others who follow a practice handed down by the successors of the apostles (the same people entrusted with selecting the books of the canon and protecting its transmission). I respect your right as a Christian to adhere to your claims about the limitations you believe are on saints — who are in eternity (seriously, the idea that hearing “billions of prayers” at the same time would pose a problem to someone *in eternity* is still hard for me to wrap my head around — it is as if you think the constraints of time and space apply in heaven) — but since they aren’t grounded in scripture, and since you seem to believe earnestly that that is the most important (or even only) criterion for passing judgements about both orthodoxy and orthopraxy, I must again request that you be a little more tolerant of your fellow Christians and a little more humble about your ability to interpret God’s Word for everyone else.
With respect,I say I have a better understanding of the difference between our beliefs. I have the same understanding as you that only in this life are we affected by time and space. I still can’t wrap my head around your idea that we will have God’s attributes of knowing everything,being everywhere at once and having all power…we are His creation, meant to enjoy Him and glorify Him forever. That is how I understand it . We will find out someday! I do want to worship God in truth, and not have false understandings about who He is. So thanks for discussing this point with me, and may God help us understand even better!
That’s fair, and I appreciate your common fellowship in Him. Pax et omne bonum.
The mother of Jesus the flesh…God him self had no mother…
Mary, Surely you don’t believe that. That is an anti-Christian heresy known as Nestorianism which has been condemned by every Christian church, catholic or protestant, in existence. As Christians who believe in the Trinity, we believe that you cannot separate Jesus into two persons. In other words, Christians believe that Jesus’s divine and human natures are inseparable. Therefore, if you say that Mary is only the mother of part of Jesus, that is an anti-Christian blasphemy of the highest order, a direct denial of Jesus Christ come in the flesh. You seem like an evangelical protestant Christian, so if you are faithful to your church, surely you don’t believe what you just said.
John, I read what Mary said about God not having a mother, I think I understand what she is saying. God is eternal, and creator of everything….He does not have a mother. He chose Mary to be the mother of God the Son to be in the flesh as Emmanuel, God with us. From my understanding Jesus was 100% God and 100% man , although He humbled himself in obedience to the Father. Mary was 100% human, and considered herself blessed to be chosen for this mysterious role in God’s plan, she also was obedient and submitted herself to God’s will. So, Jesus had an earthly mother, but God Almighty never did.
ope Gregory VII, in 1075 A.D., made a decree called the Dictatus which listed 27 powers which all popes possessed as the “successors of Peter”. Among those powers listed we read: “That it may be permitted to him [the pope] to depose emperors” and, “that he may absolve subjects from their fealty to wicked men.” Now, as the “successor of Peter”, we should have no problem finding the same doctrine or beliefs in Peter’s writings. Did he depose emperors and free us from serving such men?
Of course, he did not! In fact, he taught exactly the opposite!
“Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.” (1 Peter 2:13-15)….Why pray to a Mother who Jesus called WOMAN> Mary was a VIRGIN…that does not make her SINLESS..,,A pure vessel for Jesus to be weaved into..by the Holy Spirit…because she had not BEEN with man..UNTIL after Jesus was born…why does the Catholic Church make everything so religiously absurd that Jesus has become a mere religious icon…..The beads mean this..We don’t pray to Mary..it looks like we do ..but we don’t…Father Father..we say Father..but not as you think we mean..the nonsense goes on on…when will this nonsense stop..and Jesus becomes the ROCK?
Patricia look at Mark Chapter 9 and Matthew Chapter 17. They both show Jesus’ transfiguration with Elijah and Moses appearing and conversing with Jesus and the Apostles hearing and witnessing it. God decides who he shares his powers with, even with people on Earth (prophets, healers, speaking in tongues, etc). He could also share his powers with the Holy souls in Heaven. We are all part of Jesus body, his church and his community. Our spirits are eternal and remain a part of Jesus body and community. That is why we refer to them as the Community of Saints. We are all called to be Holy and be Saints. No where in the Bible does it say not to ask others for help, living or dead. By making it into Heaven already the Saints have succeeded in this life and who better to ask for help in making our life successful also, than to have their prayers added to ours. Jesus likes us to share in salvation and that is why we pray for others as well as ourselves. Why would he all of a sudden not want us to share any more once we are in heaven?
patricia, then what is the meaning of that jesus said is jn 3:5, that whoever is not born of water n spirit will not see the kingdom of God? for st paul didn’t speak of baptism according to the quotation u gave. we make the saints intercede for us on our hehalf, in hosea 12:3-4, we see that joseph made a supplication to an angle ok
Hi Elvis. Deep Theology here! I’ll give it my best shot: John 3:5-6, Jesus answered,”Truly,truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter theKingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Jesus spoke of “living water” from which a person would never thirst again….Holy Spirit. Is the water the baptism of repentance? God regenerates the hearts to bring people to spiritual life….He chooses us, we don’t choose Him. So, does a person choose to be baptized because they want to believe, or because they already believe. How could a person believe unless God gave them a regenerate heart? How can the things of God be received by a person unless they were made to have “ears to hear” and “eyes to see” spiritually speaking? That is why I see baptism as an act of obedience to Christ’s command to be baptized….but my spiritual eyes were already open( although I was very ignorant of Biblical teaching and had so much to learn…the work of the Spirit in me to be done until I die.) You also referenced Hosea 12:3-4, but I am not sure why….but in looking at it in my study Bible, I was directed to also read Genesis 32:28. The understanding is that this “man” or “Angel of The Lord ” was a theophany, a visible manifestation of God. Jacob wrestles with this “man” until daybreak and prevails . In Genesis 32:28, Jacob is told,” Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
If I may contiune; the reputation that the catholic religion has garnered over the years about being pagan and the contention that non-catholic christians have that catholics are not true christian is not without merit. As a young catholic I was taught that all catholics were Christians the same as all squares are rectangles. And that simply is not true.
The question before the court here today is: What does it take to be a Christian or rephrased: What does it mean to be a Christian. And if you will please allow me to use an illustration I would like to say that the catholic religion, for the purpose of this discussion, may be compared to a target with a bull’s eye in the middle. I am speaking about a series of concentric circles, i. e. circles within circles. And if those smaller circles near the center represent the most important and most “Christian” aspects of the religion please allow the outer and larger circles to represent the least important and/or least “Christian” aspects of the religion. It is my contention, after a number of decades reviewing the subject that the catholic religion is burdened down and encumbered by a great deal of non-essentials much of which have very little to do with the true Christian faith. And that these non-essentials are just about all the non-catholic public sees and knows about. So in reality, it is no wonder that so many, if not most non-catholic Christians believe that catholics are not Christians and that a great deal of their religion has pagan origins.
Tim Farber
What is the reason you are no longer Catholic? In what decade were you formed?
Brother Tim, you seem to make a lot of conclusions but with no citation or specific acusations. Would you please be so kind as to state you ONE (not 100 as most non-Catholics do) Biggest, most definate to show you point, example of how the Catholic Church is “burdened down and encumbered by a great deal of non-essentials…” etc. Thank you and God bless
I think we should be less concerned with labels and more concerned with actually living out our faith as Christians, being light in this dark world. And with all due respect, the Catholic leadership has lost a great deal of credibility. This is not to say all Catholics are bad or anything like that. But if the Catholic church wants to survive and regain respect, it must reform itself.
Reminds me of a comic strip.
Enrique,
The question the article proposes has more to do with “Catholicism” then with “Catholics”. It is too bad that most non-catholics view the individual “catholic” in light of the physical corporate organization located in Rome (which, by the way, CAN NOT SAVE YOU) instead of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Who, by the way can save you). After all, when a bible reading, non-catholic sees a catholic neighbor or co-worker or relative they think of the them in in two conflicting ways simultaneously. One, as a member organization in Rome, and as an individual who may or may not be a true, saved, born again Christian.
The Bible talks at some length about how the sinners will remain with us until the end of time, and they will not be separated until the end times.
It also talks at some length about a visible, public organization, a corporate body of believers, and is scandalized at denominationalism. Catholicism is adenominational. It is anti-denominational. It is not a denomination. It is simply, and purely, the visible Church founded by Christ, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail.
Dear Benjamin,
Please tell me were the bible talks about a visible, public organization. I have been reading the bible for close to 40 yrs now and I can not really see why you would think the “church” would “have” to be an “organization” with a geographical headquarters with grand and luxurious buildings and all the costly “physical” trappings of a Renaissance palace. Over the centuries Rome has grown to be a cross between a governmental state without borders and an international high finance corporation.
Can anybody help me out with this?
tim
Visible, public organization: Acts 15, for one.
Tim the earliest Christian chur he’s had a hierarchy. U should do some reading of the early church fathers starting with ignatius of Antioch (a student of john the apostle) who believed that the eucharist is the flesh of our lord and savior, then he goes on to say that a eucharist is a valid one only when performed under a bishops authority or someone under the bishop, and he also said to follow the bishop.
The apostles were in the best position to fully understand what the birch was and what the apostles interpretation of scripture was. Here we have a hierchial authoritative scripture all the way back to 110 ad from a student of the apostles.
I would also recommend the writings of Clement of Rome in 90 ad who talked about how the apostles ordained future leaders of the church.
As far as not seeing something in scripture , scripture itself can have a multitude of interpretations but did the earliest Christian church teach personal interpretation of scripture ?
Clearly it did not if you read through the writings of the early church fathers. The bible doesn’t interpret itself and it did t fall out if the sky fully formed. Lets not forget that whenever we pick up a New Testament we believe the gospels in the New Testament are God inspired because the Catholic Church , which decided on the canonic it’s of the bible had the authority to know which gospels belonged in the bible and which didnt. This was decided in 4 catholic Christian councils between 380ad and 420 ad.
And there were disputes as to which books belonged in the bible and which didnt. The African church synod for example believed that the book of Hebrews was not God inspired and didn’t want them included in the bible, but who was the final arbiter of the decision ?
It was the pope in Rome who made that final call.
Researching the apostolic fathers and the early church fathers is what kept me catholic when I was curiously attending evengelical bible studies .
Bible alone wasnt practices by the early church. It was scripture , sacrad oral Traditon with a capital T and the magisterium , or else every person off the streets would have their own interpretation and this , form their own church, which we see today.
These books on the early church will help
The fathers know best by jimmy akin
And
Where is that in the bible by Patrick Madrid
Every Christian should read The Early Fathers of the Church, history of the Church. Also, history of the Holy Bible.
The Church declared the Bible the word of God, but not all the teachings of the Church are in the Gospels. The Gospels are based on the Oral Traditions of the Church, not the other way around. Who believes in the Bible is accepting the Magisterium of the Church.
The Apostolic Traditions of the Church consist of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.
They have been handed down and entrusted to the church. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, for the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13).
Hi Ben, Yes, when God judges all people, from all time, He will “separate the sheep from the goats.’ Even as sinners saved by the grace of God through our faith in Christ, we still are sinners…although, like Paul said, we need to keep striving to follow Christ’s model and commands, and ” die to self daily” to ” run the good race.” As I understand it,the sheep separated out for Heaven will not be from any particular organization, but only those who are faithful to Christ as He is described in scripture, and do as He told us to do. The goats are all the unbelievers as well as those who think they are followers of Christ, but it is not the same Christ. I do think that Catholics and Protestants believe in the Deity of Christ which is in accordance with scripture, but many who profess to follow Christ do not…thus, it is a different Jesus from the one described in the book of John. Also, there are nominal Christians who go to church and do good works, but have not seen their own need to be saved from sin. They see themselves as good people who deserve to be in Heaven someday. These too will be in the goat category I believe. Paul warns the young churches to watch out for wolves in sheep’s clothing , who teach a different gospel . These preachers are everywhere, and all believers should compare scripture to what they hear coming from their pulpit.
Not the point. The point is that without the sacramental life, you slow or prevent sanctification, and you have fewer weapons with which to combat the devil, who goes about even now as a roaring lion, seeking whom he should devour.
Presumably you aren’t Catholic, so you do not have the sacramental life. It follows that you are easier pickings for the devil, for there is little avenue for the ordinary graces God gave us.
Which is a stirring condemnation against the novelty of sola scriptura, among other things.
Hi Ben, I do not know what you mean by by .the sacremental life. I have come to understand that I receive salvation the minute I fully see my need for a savior, and surrender my life to Jesus Christ. I got baptized because Jesus commanded us to do that as a public witness of my confession of faith in Him. I take Communion also to focus my mind on the sacrifice He made for me and re dedicate my life to Him. My sanctification is a process that continues until I die. Through reading God’s word, learning scripture and understanding how to apply it to my life ( with the help of good preachers and teachers ) I will grow in Truth with the help of The Holy Spirit in me. Looking back over the past 20 years, I can see I have grown as a Christian and I do react in much more Christ like ways than before, and I lean on God more as well as give God thanks for more everyday. But, I stumble everyday, and keep the confidence that “He who began a good work in me” will continue. Knowing that Satan wants to see Christians fail keeps me vigilant…as scripture says we( I can’t find the verse right now) we are striving against “the world, the flesh and the devil.” God tells us in the Bible that He wants our hearts, not empty rituals or mindless repetitions in prayer …these do not please Him.
Climbing Half Dome without climbing gear is like sanctification without sacraments.
I do want to understand what you are talking about, Ben…could you elaborate ?
Christ gave us the sacraments, which are outward signs of inward graces. Sacraments are His chosen method to apply the fruits of redemption; the forgiveness of sin among them. Sanctification proceeding without them is unnecessarily difficult, and in fact contrary to the wishes of Christ. (Not that sanctification with them is any walk in the park, naturally.)
Sacraments do more, however; they safeguard the merits of faith, &c., which Christ has already given us. They strengthen us in our resolve and spiritual temperament, protecting us from the evil one to a degree.
This seems somewhat of a false dichotomy if you accept the Biblical suggestion that the Church is the mystical body of Christ. As for the rest, I would imagine that a protestant is no more likely than a catholic to be a “true, saved, born again Christian.” Also, I find the way you worded that to be quite bizarre — are you saying it is possible to be a Christian that isn’t “saved” or “born again” ? In any event, this post was about the general attitude that Catholics, unlike protestants, are somehow not “Christians” — a rather anti-Christian belief, frankly.
Dear Poor Knight for Christ,
I am not sure I fully understand your request. The original topic was “Why So Many Protestants Do Not Consider Catholics Christians” or stated as a question it might be “Why Do So Many Protestants Not Consider Catholics to be Truly Christians?”
Before I go on with my contribution to that question I would like to ask another: “Does anyone care one way or another what Protestants believe about catholics?” And/or “Why should it matter to catholics what Protestants believe them?”
If there are readers who would be interested in examining the question as to why so many protestants do not believe catholics are Christians I would be willing to give my 2 cents worth from my decades of talking with them about catholics.
I offered in my last post what I believe to be a valid answer to that question. And that is to quote directly out of article, that many Protestants believe that “The Catholic Church has absorbed all kinds of non-apostolic traditions and as such is no longer Christian.” I can’t help but to say that for the most part I believe this statement to be true. And I used the illustration of concentric circles (like a target with a bull’s eye) to represent the historical fact of the ever increasing additions of “non-essentials” to the center of the bull’s eye.
Poor Knight, are you asking me to point out just one of these non-essentials that has been absorbed by the church through out its 1700 year history? How about you point one out first. There are dozens as far as the Protestants are concerned. Why limit our discussion to just one?
I admire u both very much I am reading both of what u are saying,I can not express my self as well as u .but I do know Jesus is the center of our life’s amen I could go back time about our lady how God choose this young virgin to have his son we are so blessed with the Holy Spirit when Jesus had the spear put in his side all his mercy and grace flowed through out the earth we are blessed with loving God who raised up after three days but while he was brought up with his parents life was not easy temptation at ever corner and when we pray our hearts are centers on Christ our way to the kingdom of heaven we are blessed with Jesus moms the passion of Christ gives us faith and hope and most of all love straight from the sacred heart of Jesus the people who have died terrible deaths all the saints the people who are against the Catholics have tortured life’s over and over through. Out centuries of time I have to close now I pray to the Holy Spirit he gives u the wisdom to see clearly amen
Tim, believe it or not the trinity was not apostolic tradition. The doctrine of the trinity took over 250 years to fully be developed and it wasn’t developed. Y the apostles but by the church. Many doctrines weren’t fully developed for hundreds of years. This is why it’s extremely important to understand why historically the church was given the power to authoritatively interprete scripture and no where does it say that all doctrines must be fully developed within 20 or 50 or 300 years after Christ’s resurrection.
Remember what the early Church believed in.
Scripture , sacred Tradition and magisterium
The bible didn’t tell us what parts of the bible were inspired did it?
The church by the authority given to it by Christ decided on that, and even the formation of the bible canon itself was not done during the times of the apostles.
OK Tim, you were charitably asked to produce just one example and responded only with generalities which makes one think there’s no meat on those bones. Or perhaps you’re afraid that the ones you will bring up will be obliterated by Truth? I know it’s easy nowadays to bully horribly formed post Vatican 2 Catholics but that doesn’t mean the only Church founded by Christ is flawed in its Truth. Is Christianity based on the bible or is the bible based on Christianity? Was Paul writing to Christian communities already formed or did those communities have a bible to read before Paul wrote to them? You know Catholics were the only Christians for the first 1000+ years and wrote the bible right? Where in the bible does it say that it’s the only source of God’s Truth, that it’s self authenticating? (Clue: it doesn’t.) And doesn’t James Ch 2 call a person who believes in salvation by faith alone an ignoramus?? I have a busy week and will probably forget this exchange long before I get time to respond but God bless and Peace be with you. Read John Ch 6 for some fun, especially the part where it says: “Amen Amen I say to you…”
Dear Biggar,
There is a lot in your above post of March 7 in which to respond. But for time sake let me say that the topic of the article here was “Why so many non-catholic, bible reading Christian do not consider Roman catholics to be Christians”
My conclusion from 40 yrs or so of working with and talking to and even going to bible studies with and visiting church with non-catholic christians is what I would like to call the highly visible “non-essentials” or “excess baggage” of the Rome system, developed over the centuries bit by bit that have nothing to do with “becoming” a Christian, being a “sanctified” (i.e. holy) Christian, and getting into heaven when we die.
I can get into the whole 9 yards with you if wish and give you a list. All I would have to do is go over to one of multitudes of home bible studies that one of my bible reading non-christians is having this week and turn on a tape recorder and ask them this same question and they would go one for hours listing all of the silly, non-biblical beliefs and activities that catholic people believe and engage in. And they would do it all with bible verses flying at you one after another.
and as far as James 2 is concerned, they have that nailed, please, trust me on that.
P.S. I will read John 6 later. It is a big chapter. How about you reading Romans chapter 1-5 and the book of Galatians and Eph. 2:8-9.
P.P.S. I love the book of John. The Lord tells us some 100 times or so that in order to get to heaven when one dies is to simply “believe”. Evan the 6 year old children of my non-catholic, bible believing friends can recite from memory the words of Jesus from John 3:16!
Can you?
Your friend,
Tim
John 6 really has to be rough for protestants. I mean, to paraphrase the dialogue from John 6:35-71…
Jesus: “I am the Bread of Life. You must eat My Flesh, which is real food, and drink My Blood, which is real drink, to have eternal life.”
Crowd: “Come on Jesus, you are speaking *symbolically*, right? I mean, we know your parents. You aren’t bread and wine, you are a carpenter’s son. You can’t possibly be saying that we literally have to eat your flesh and drink your blood, nor are we buying this ‘came down from heaven’ nonsense unless you are really being poetic with your language.”
Jesus: “Stop grumbling you idiots. Indeed that is what I’m saying. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat my flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats (the Greek word is almost closer to ‘gnaws on’) My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. I could not be clearer about this.”
Crowd: “Listen, that’s crazy talk. We’ll stay if you can clarify that you are speaking symbolically, otherwise we are out of here.”
Jesus: “Again, I really couldn’t have been clearer.”
Crowd: “Ciao Jesus, go sell crazy somewhere else.”
Jesus: “What about the rest of you, my close disciples, are you going to leave too, or can you accept this teaching that you must literally eat My Body in order to have eternal life?”
Peter: “I have to admit it may be over this fisherman’s head, but if we were to leave, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and that means that even when they are hard, we have to accept them, particularly after you’ve insisted so vehemently on this point.”
Jesus: “Great, at least the situation with you guys isn’t hopeless (though I’m really just not getting through to one of you, ahem, Judas…)”
I’m with Peter, I can’t fully explain the mystery of it all, but I will trust in God, and follow Christ. I also know we are not eating his literal flesh..sorry, no matter how Catholics claim it, it makes no sense. But to fully embrace as much of the magnitude of beauty and grace of God’s act of redeeming our sinful selves, as we can….that is what we are to do when taking the elements.
It is unimaginable, but it does make sense. The difference here is between the imagination and the intellect. For example, step away from “Body” and consider “Blood.” What does blood signify in the Old Testament? Why is blood forbidden for Jews to drink?
(Deuteronomy 12:23)
Consider: Does Christ want us to share in his life? If he does, and if Deuteronomy is God’s truth, how would drinking his blood be inappropriate?
The life is in the blood. Faith is of the heart. If you don’t have actual blood in your mouth, and taste actual flesh in your mouth when you take communion, then we have nothing to argue about!
If you were with Peter, you wouldn’t deny Jesus’s words. Read the dialogue again. The crowd left him because they thought he was speaking symbolically and he insisted he was speaking literally. Only Peter and the closest disciples stayed. The question is, are you willing to accept the mysterious, even though you can’t explain it, because Jesus said it (in the strongest. possible. terms.) as recorded in the New Testament? Show me where Jesus said “you aren’t eating My literal Flesh, no matter how many times I’ve told you otherwise.” Its a question of whether you want to accept the traditions of man, and man’s small-minded inability to understand the mysteries of God, or accept the traditions of God. It’s ironic — protestants don’t like to think of themselves as people who defend their own man made traditions despite the clear teaching of the Bible. But there you have it.
I want to please God over man. I love God’s word, and Christ is LORD of my life. I take the elements of communion with reverence…it is a mystery, all of it, that’s all I know.
Taste blood in your mouth? Huh? That is NOT what Catholic teach. The accidents of bread and wine remain, but the substance — what it really is, from the standpoint of faith — is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Why do you think Jesus is the Lamb of God? When Lambs were killed at the temple, they functioned as a sacrifice when they were eaten. It is no coincidence that Jesus was executed on the Day of Preparation. Familiarize yourself with the Old Testament and with the Epistle to the Hebrews. The shape, taste, smell, size, weight, chemical properties, etc. etc. don’t change — but those things are not permanent essential Being. Rather they are transient changing illusory attributes. Those things are not what is changed. Every time, every single time, that the Eucharist is mentioned in scripture, the one thing that is constantly emphasized is that it is not a mere symbol. To say that it is a mere symbol is to blaspheme and spit on God and His word.
Wow, some things sure get complicated. All I am trying to clarify, is the exact reason Protestants and Roman Catholics argue about the elements of communion. So, when I said,”unless you taste actual blood when you drink juice or wine of communion, I do not see why we have anything to disagree about! Yes, it has been said over and over, that to be a Christian, one must believe Jesus is God in the flesh, lived a sinless life, was crucified for our sins….died in my place, as was predicted throughout Scripture. God raised Him from the dead on the third day, and He sits at the right hand of God (the Father), and is Judge! we take communion in remembrance of His sacrifice. Why, or how can we argue about the wine being literal or actual blood? all I know is I love and accept Jesus Christ as God and savior of my soul. I want to TRUST and OBEY Him , which encompasses faith and good works. I do take exception to Protestants being connected to Satan…Jesus tells us to take the log out of our own eye before attempting to take the splinter out from someone else’s eye. Maybe you just have not found the best way to explain the Catholic viewpoint on the elements? I am still listening.
,,, but … it is real blood. That’s the point of bringing it up.
Wow Biggar. You couldn’t be more wrong. The Bible CLEARLY states it’s inspired by God and His Word never to be changed, along with the witness of the Holy Spirit. And these two must agree. Also, it CLEARLY says we are SAVED by faith alone. I mean really. I don’t know what book you have read but I think you should check again. 🙂
Clearly, eh? Where?
Clear as mud. James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Now, I’m sure you can present some rationalization, perhaps along the lines of “when James said ‘justified,’ he didn’t exactly mean justified” or “well true saving faith will produce works, so the works are evidence of that faith” (reading comprehension, try again) or “as Martin Luther argued, James needs to be removed from the Bible.” Or something else. And my point is not even that you would be wrong (though you would) — it is rather that doesn’t say what you think it says quite as ALL CAPS CLEARLY as you think it says it. Also there is no time, not once, in the Greek where you see the words faith and alone together. Not one time. Also, we resolved this spat with the schismatics already, please catch up: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
To clarify, the above was meant as friendly banter between fellow Christians, with a smile on my face (tone is sometimes hard to interpret online). But it isn’t wrong.
James is confusing, unless taken in context with the entire message of scripture. Abraham believed God, and it was counted as righteousness. Abraham obeyed God by taking Isaac as a sacrifice…but he did tell Isaac that God would provide the lamb(he had full trust in God)…His faith was demonstrated by his works. Christ became flesh and was God’s perfect lamb to be sacrificed ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME for our sins. To say that what Christ did was “not enough” to save a person is to deny Him! If you think you must add works to faith in Christ…what do you do with “we are saved by faith ,it is a gift from God, not of works, lest some would boast.” Yes, in light of the general theme of the Bible, works goes naturally with a true saving faith in Jesus Christ. we are His hands and feet, we are to point people to Him not only with words, but with how we live our lives..”do everything as unto The Lord”.
Patti, you’ve advance some specious arguments before, but this is really beneath you. According to your logic, since what Christ did on the cross was sufficient and nothing else is needed, then faith isn’t needed. Obviously that is absurd. When we say that we agree with the Bible that a) says one is not justified by faith alone and b) does not ever say that one is justified by faith alone, we aren’t saying that Jesus’s passion is insufficient. We are saying that “faith” that isn’t joined with works is not true faith. And so we believe one is saved by faith, totally apart from *works of the law.* We don’t for example, argue that people need to keep kosher. But faith is not something in your head, it isn’t something that you say, it is something that you DO. Please, please, read your Bible, and come back to Christ. He has his arms wide open and is waiting for you to come back and love him and take *faithful* *actions.* To insist over and over that 100% works free faith is something that can save you is anti-Christian.
since I first believed in Christ as my savior, I have never “left”Him, so I don’t need to “come back” to Him. The bottom line , as I understand scripture, is that we are saved through faith in Christ..and that this is a gift from God( God is the one who regenerates the heart of the degenerate.) So, as a result of being reborn of God’s Spirit, we do good works. Faith without works is a dead faith….but works without faith would not save you. The many upstanding citizens of this world are difficult to reach with the gospel, because they see themselves as good people, they don’t recognize their lost /sinful state.
But the Catholic Church does not teach that “works without faith” can save, so it is a straw-man to bring that up. But works are more than a *consequence* of faith, they *are* faith. As I’ve said, and as the Bible says, faith is not something that is in your head or something you say. It is something that you do. It is something that you live. So yes, we believe that through grace, one receives the gift of faith, and that by practicing that faith, one is justified. We have condemned Pelagianism — the idea that you can somehow ‘earn’ your salvation by performing good works — for more than a thousand years. So the position of the Catholic church is that a) you are saved by faith, and b) that faith is something you enact, something you perform, something that you live. You either agree with the teaching of the Catholic church on this, in which case, great!, or you disagree, but the only way to disagree is to believe that faith is not something that you have to put into action. If that is what you believe, it seems to me that that is an impoverished faith. If it isn’t what you believe, it really begs the question of why you would criticize what the Catholic Church teaches regarding faith and works.
Ah! I see we do agree that faith is seen in how a person lives life ,in their behavior and “works”. What I posted yesterday is in sync with what you said here. But technically, a person could be saved without doing any works if he did not have the chance to do works, ie the thief on the cross. He spoke with Christ and acknowledged His deity…Christ told him “today you will be with me in Paradise.” also,I looked up some information on the Catholic view of Communion. I learned something! Now I see what you mean that to a person, the bread and wine always has the same properties, but on another level, it changes to actual blood and flesh of Christ. This has been debated for centuries, and is a mystery….I don’t think we will resolve it on this blog. I do want to understand your position.
:-). I apologize for being so quarrelsome, please forgive me. I had earlier been reading some rabid anti-catholic webpage and projected that animus inappropriately, forgetting Ephesians 2:18 (and 4:31)… So while we are sadly separated from full communion with one another, our differences are often more semantic than we realize, and it’s easy to forget that we Catholics share some of the blame for the Reformation by allowing the episcopate to be defiled and corrupted by love of money and temporal power.
We call the Eucharist a sacrament to emphasize that it isn’t a mere ordinance, something that *we* do, but rather is something God does, as a means of conveying grace. He offers Himself for us as a living sacrifice, which we participate in at mass when we take communion — which is not to say that Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross wasn’t sufficient for all time, as it most definitely was. Rather, we believe that Jesus instituted the Eucharist so that there would be a visible means by which we could unite ourselves with Him in faith and make that sacrifice, which according to the flesh happened almost 2000 years ago, immediately present to ourselves in our lives, and so to help us understand that just as the Father is in Him, Christ is in us, and just as the Father is in Christ and raised Him up, so too by eating the Bread of Life we are blessed with the grace that allows us to live at all times in Jesus Christ. The Body of Christ is for us a medicine that cures us of the mortality of sin; by eating it, even though we die, we shall live forever. For we were already dead in sin, but Jesus came so that we “may have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10:10)! And just as there is one Body, one “atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2), there is one Bread, and all around the world, in every nation, tribe, and people, everyone who eats that Bread is one in Christ, for “we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread,” an observation that lead Paul to ask “are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?” (1 Corinthians 10:17-18). We eat the sacrifice, we share the altar, we are one body, Christ is in us, we are in Christ! This is where the name ‘Catholic’ comes from to describe the Church — it is universal, for the atonement of Christ was not limited, but for all.
So when the Bread is presented to us as the Body of Christ, which was given up for us and which we need in us, and we say ‘Amen’ and take and eat, we are at once remembering the death of the Lord and strengthening our faith in Him — and accordingly, God conveys His grace to us in the sacrament. But of course it is of no advantage to anyone without faith, and it is a great blessing precisely because it requires faith and it increases and sustains faith. Now, in a way, the bread and wine are symbols, in the same way that Jesus Himself was a symbol — Jesus is not the Father, and yet “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). What a great mystery, since “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God” (John 1:18)! But just as Jesus was not a *mere* symbol, but a literal incarnation of the Word, so too we see the bread of communion as more than a *mere* symbol, but rather “the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world… For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.” (John 6:51,55). Thus, Paul emphasizes the importance of recognizing the Real Presence of Christ in the communion meal: “For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves” (1 Corinthians 11:29).
Our understanding of the Bread of Life is informed by a reading of the Old Testament. We read about the Bread of the Presence, “a memorial of the sacrifice of the Lord” which “is to be set out before the Lord regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant” (Leviticus 24:7-8). We also believe that Jesus is the Word of God, and so when we celebrate the Eucharist, we always read scripture, according to God’s instruction to “eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it” — Ezekial found that “it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth” (Ezekial 3:3). How can it be that the Word is truly God, or that the Bread we eat in communion is truly the Body of Christ? When we are tempted to say “it is symbolic,” we are vainly attempting to insist that we understand the mysteries of God, forgetting that “as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:9). Indeed, though shrouded in mystery, we know absolutely that living forever, Jesus “holds His priesthood permanently” (Hebrews 7:24), and thus He is always offering his Body and Blood on our behalf, in atonement for our sins. His priesthood is permanent and eternal, His sacrifice is permanent and eternal, and we participate in it and are blessed by it when we enact our faith by taking communion, the Body of Christ which Jesus, as our “holy, blameless, [and] pure” high priest, offers us in the mass (Hebrews 7:26). This is mysterious because we know that Christ did not “enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own” (Hebrews 9:25) and yet He remains our permanent high priest — but it makes sense when you remember that there is but one Body, and thus but one Bread, the same Bread we receive all across the world for 2000 years. If the Bread were not the Body of Christ, it would be many, but it is One. And this is why we believe that Christians must never treat “as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them” (Hebrews 10:29). Amen.
I do appreciate the feedback…all is well, I do understand getting passionate about the faith. All the scripture you quoted, I have read many times, Hebrews is one of my favorites, as it does clearly explain how Christ replaced the sacrifices done over and over again;as well as replacing imperfect priests with the perfect eternal Christ. I can only say that as a Protestant Christian, that we take communion seriously as well,and always have scripture read before we take each of the elements. I want the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart to be pleasing in His sight! I don’t understand it exactly like you do, I can only ask God to show me if I need to see things differently. He said He would be with us always…I will trust in Him!
I think that it is very important for Catholics to know what protestants believe about the church, particularly, for Catholic apologists. The goal here is to bring the truth to the world. We certainly want to plant the seeds that will bring everyone into full communion and so, we need to have some idea of what barriers stand in the way.
I am a women of faith who believes in God the father almighty who made heaven and earth brought up in Scotland with Irish parents who taught me to honest catholic I have seen what the prodestants have done to our church to our people of Scotland and Irish they rule at this moment in time people are in prison for being Catholics so please look at the history I became a catholic christen many moons ago so proud to pray to our lady and the saints whom died for what they truly believe that Jesus is the king of heaven later
Amen Mary God bless you.
I was baptized a Melkite catholic and received communion in the Roman Catholic Church . I just learned to pray the rosary in Latin 🙂
God bless everyone in here
A note from the author –
I’m very intrigued to see where this conversation has gone. Anyone who is following this post who has a point of contention with the Church or any questions about why we do what we do, please, feel free to email me. All I ask is that you approach me with an open heart and an open mind, so we can have a meaningful conversation.
springfieldspse@gmail.com
Hello again, It does seem to be a very delicate task, discussing these issues. It helps to remember that as we are all followers of Jesus Christ, we are all in His family. Faith in Christ is the crux of it all, and we do have this in common. As the other subjects, ie rosary beads, praying to saints who have died, when & how the rapture will happen, is pergatory real…these are non essentials, and should not cause division. If Jesus is Lord of our lives and we live our lives in obedience to Him, we will find out the truth of these other things someday. As to the book of James…yes, in chapter 2 he says ” Can his faith save him ?” But in context, he explaining that faith without works is dead. Good works are not done to earn salvation, as we are told salvation is a gift we can not earn. ( so none can boast.) But good works are the fruit of the spirit that we do BECAUSE we are saved through our faith in Christ . We do good works as the hands & feet of God. As to Catholics & Protestants killing each other; It is another example of people loosing focus on Christ, and giving in to misplaced allegiances…just what Satan likes to do. Many things are done in the name of Christ, that do not represent Him ! Christians are being persecuted, jailed,killed and tortured this very day …not because they are Catholic or any other denomination, but because they are Christians….look at “The Voice of The Martyrs” website, there are ways to help them. Thanks everyone for a “meaty” discussion.
Nothing which is part of the sense of the faith is unessential. Where in scripture or tradition do you see a distinction between a big thing and a little thing when doctrine is concerned?
Practice, yes. But not doctrine.
Jeffery,
Thank you for writing and posting this article. It has been the springboard for quite a few very interesting discussions between me and some of my bible believing non-catholic friends and co-workers. I work with a number of bible believing Christians. The former catholics among them are the most vociferous about the pagan part of your article insisting that when they left catholicism they left paganism. The occasion of the resignation of the pope and the election of a new one has sparked a few “interesting” and lengthy discussions.
I am used to meeting and dealing with quite a few former catholics who are now bible believing Christians but I must say it is quite rare when I meet a former bible believing Christian who is now catholic.
Do you, or they, really know what paganism is? Paganism is child sacrifice under a full moon with a jeweled knife, babbling nonsense and imploring assistance from the all powerful hunk of rock in the sky or on the ground. It is drinking the steaming blood of a slaughtered ox in a drunken, wanton orgy. It is actually believing that to step on the crack will break your mother’s back.
It is not incense and vestments and gilding and religious images. These are trappings, not substance, of humanity’s shared sense of the numinous sacred, shared by Jews and pagans alike.
Having spent a fair amount of time reading the history of actual pagan practice and ritual, it is clear that there really isn’t any substantial overlap.
Sampling bias.
Secondly, Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Mark Shea, Dave Armstrong, Steve Ray — basically everyone at Catholic Answers besides Karl Keating and Patrick Coffin. And that’s just apologists and public figures, off the top of my head.
Idolatry involves where your heart and focus is…as it says in Colossians 3:5 “Therefore, put to death whatever in you is worldly: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire, and greed, which is idolatry.” It does take self awareness and effort to keep our hearts focused on living within God’s will. From what I understand about this for instance, is that being wealthy is not a sin, but the lust for money is. Making a lot of money being more important than being right with God is the sin…thus money becomes the idol for this person.
Yes! And that’s why devotions are not idolatry.
Ben , would you also explain what you mean by “devotions.” Thank you.
Devotions are, in the words of the Catholic Encyclopedia, “external practices of piety by which the devotion of the faithful finds life and expression.”
That is, devotion to God finds external expression in any number of things, be it pilgrimages, the Stations of the Cross, hours of Adoration, the Rosary, the Miraculous Medal. All sorts of stuff. These things, because they do not replace God but are instead popular ways of praising Him, cannot be idolatrous.
So these are Catholic forms of worship, not required for salvation…just a style of worship ?
I’m thinking the original use for the word “apostasy” meant leaving the faith= the faith in Christ Jesus as God incarnate who came not to condemn the world, but to save it. “The church ( church universal ) being the body of Christ comprised of His followers ( the true church.) All Christians are subject to attack by Satan. Any individual church by any name, is subject to imploding if they preach false doctrine.
How do you make sense of “The gates of Hell will not prevail against” it? You must have some interpretation, yes? I ask because I don’t see a good one, given what you’ve just said.
You know what’s required for worship? Not watching yourself so carefully.
Everything written in God’s word is His message to us, and can be trusted. I am saying, that there are many things that have some mystery to them that I , for one, can not fully understand nor explain. The message of the gospel, the path to salvation is made clear….as Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The book of Romans is a very extensive in telling us about our being a new creation in Christ. But again, the things I am talking about as being “non essential’, I mean we can still be saved because of our faith & trust in Christ, and not completely understand some the other information ie; the end times, all the details about when Christ returns…that is what I mean. I would like to know how the praying to Mary & other saints came to be a practice, since I have not found anything instructing believers to do this in scripture ( I have been reading the entire Bible every year now for about six years.) and every time I learn more , and can see how the old & new testaments are very much intertwined…we need to understand the old to better understand what is going on in the new testament. And , yes, there is still much mystery…you will agree that “Revelations” can be difficult to completely understand ? But we can be confidant of our salvation in Christ without fully understanding everything in scripture.
For an excellent book on what the book of Revelations means read Dr. Scott Hahn’s (a converted Protestant Minister who really knows his bible), The Lamb’s Supper. It also explains most everything us Catholics do at mass and why and how it is biblically based and also talks about the Saints as they are mentioned in Revelations.
I think it is very important for catholics to know what catholics are supposed to believe in order to get to heaven. There are more opinions about that subject amoung catholics than you can shake a stick at. Even priest today are uncertain about what it takes to get to heaven. They all have differing opinions.
Which matters why?
It matters, so we can know we are saved…it is not really so elusive. Jesus was very clear when He said, ” I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me.” Christ died to atone for our sins once and for all ,but first we do need to see or need for a savior and confess with our mouths that He is Lord of our lives, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead. To add any other requirements to gaining salvation, other than what Christ did for us , is to lack faith in Christ and would be denying Him. No, if we are in truth saved by God’s grace through faith in Christ, we can not live like the gangsters on the show ” The Sopranos”, going to Mass and going through the motions of a believer, then carrying on their criminal business…they are not saved ! If they were, their lives would bear the fruit of The Holy Spirit by the way they behave. Doing good works, caring about others ,etc. To have the peace of God is to know you have been forgiven and are seen as righteous by God ONLY because we now belong to Christ. This is a wonderful thing…accept it and thank God every day for saving you ! Then ask God to help you to stay on that “narrow road” to avoid sin and not grieve the Spirit ( we still do, but He will convict us ; then we ask for forgiveness and move on.) That is why I mentioned that perfecting our walk with Christ takes a lifetime.
Patricia, I have been reading through this post, and I am stopping here. However, I would like to say that I admire your love for the Truth contained in God’s Word and all the more for your open heart to hear what others believe and why.Salvation is not by works but faith alone. There is nothing that I can “do” to earn a trip to Heaven. We have to have complete faith in the fact that Christ, God Himself, paid the TOTAL price for our sins. It is a gift. We are commanded by Christ to do so much more, and when we love Him and get go know Him more, we understand the true meaning behind these commands. The Word tells us that we have to study to show ourselves approved and that we have to work out our own salvation.
First, you said, “I got baptized because Jesus commanded us to do that as a public witness of my confession of faith in Him.” I do not see the biblical backing for this. What I do seeis that Jesus was baptized to fullfil all righteouness, and many others were baptized to have their sins remitted (washed away). Every example of baptism after Jesus ascended, that I can think of, is in the name Jesus, in the name of the Lord Jesus, or something else with Jesus’s name spoken over the person being baptized, and it was always for the remission of sins. A wonderful account of this that comes to mind immediately is that of Cornelius. A wonderful man who had everything going for him in his walk with God, but something was missing…
Second, I also see the requirement to be baptized in the spirit, the baptism of the Holy Ghost. According to the Bible, there is a sign the follows when a person recieves the gift of the Holy Ghost. Something happens that causes the people around to KNOW that a person has recieved this gift. The only example I see for this is that the person speaks in tongues, a language not know by that person.
May God continue to bless you in your studies. 🙂
Hello Amy, I do have to study God’s word more thoughtfully to respond to questions and comments , so this blog is a good thing ! (1) Baptism , as a public confession of faith : Constant through all Scripture is the importance of a person’s heart. Faith is a matter of the heart. God , over and over, tells the people of Israel He has no pleasure in the blood of sheep, goats etc, which are empty rituals, unless there is true devotion of the heart. ” Does the LORD take pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as obeying the LORD ? Look: to obey is better than sacrifice, to pay attention is better than the fat of rams. ” 1 Samuel 15:22. And, ” The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God , you will not despise a broken and humbled heart ” Psalm 51:17. And many more examples throughout the Bible of the real issue is the heart of a person, their motives……God knows the heart of every person…… ” The heart is more deceitful than anything else and desperately wicked, who can know it ? I, the LORD , search the mind and test the heart to give according to his way, according to what his actions deserve. ” Jeremiah 17:9-10. This is a hard saying, but when we realize how much we rationalize things in our everyday lives, it becomes clear…we do lie to ourselves to rationalize little and big things. And we justify to other people as well our actions…and to God too. So, that is the principle I base my understanding of baptism on…it is with the heart we believe God, and are humbled before Him…the ritual of being baptized means nothing without the repentant and humbled heart. When the thief, on the cross next to Jesus, asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom, Jesus answered, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.” Luke 23:43. No time for the ritual of baptism, but sounds like Jesus accepted the man’s faith ! (2) Baptized in the Holy Spirit : When we confess our faith in Jesus Christ as LORD of our lives, we enter in to a relationship with the one true living God. It is a dynamic ongoing part of our lives. God is everywhere and can not be contained ,so to speak. However, we learn in 1 Corinthians 6:19 ” Do you not know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God ? You are not your own, for you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body. So, I can not fully understand all this spiritual intervening that God does for us and through us and to us, but we are told plainly that He is working in us. The speaking in tongues after the day of Pentecost , is “A” manifestation of a work of the Holy Spirit, not “THE” manifestation. It served a specific purpose on that occasion…to reach people of many different languages with the Gospel . When we become Christ’s, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:35….Luke 11:13……Ephesians 1:13, and many more you can look up. Galatians 5:22-26 sums it up nicely : ” But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.” Does this mean we can be all these things perfectly….I can not, but over time I am being changed and I am showing the fruit of the SPIRIT more and more. This takes prayer for growth in the Spirit, and study of God’s word, and conscious effort on my part….I know I grieve the Spirit when I behave badly, but I thank God He has not abandoned me ! Persevere!
Absolutely, it’s a matter of the heart. Repentance is the first step. Without true repentance, everything else is in vain. Once you acknowledge sin and repent (decide to turn away), I see that baptism was REQUIRED to remit those sins. Even those who were baptized by John for repentance had to be rebaptized for remission. The only sign that I see in scripture, as a result of recieving the Holy Ghost, is speaking in tongues. Not every account specifically mentions speaking in tongues, but in those passages, I don’t see any other signs. I understand completely that more research and studying is certainly necessary before responding, but I would love to hear what you find out. 🙂
As humans, we are quick to gravitate towards legalism….which includes rituals, and other actions or deeds we believe must ALSO be done to cleanse from sin….this is a lack of faith in what Christ did for us ! Again, He told us to be baptized, but this is a public witness, our faith in Christ and repentance has saved us. We take Communion also, because He said “Do this in remembrance of Me,” NOT to be saved, but because we are saved and are His ! Taking the sacraments keeps our focus on Christ , which we need often while living in this world. I mentioned the thief on the cross and other scripture to read….it’s all there very plainly . Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their legalism and burdening the people with more than God required of them. Keep studying, I will too, and the Holy Spirit will reveal these things to us !
I do not discount the scriptures you reference. I only believe that they are part of the story. If I compare all of scripture, I have the complete story. I do believe that it is a narrow way, as Jesus proclaimed, and it requires in depth study to know God’s heart. I have not given scripture references. Everything I have given you was strictly my understanding. If you are interested, I would be happy to give scriptural backing. I do pray that the Holy Spirit continues to work in us, so that we are ready to face our creator.
Yes Amy, I agree we need to keep reading Scripture and read things in context, as anything else would be read to have any meaning. It is nice to talk to other people who want to have a relationship with the living God…that’s what life is all about ! Persevere.
Patricia, I can suggest passages to read, if you want. I notice that most people on here aren’t really wanting to read scripture and see what God wants. They are much more interested in religion. I cannot continue reading their posts. Sorry!! May God bless everyone on here for their strong faith and desire to share how they feel. May the Holy Spirit continue to reveal the mystery of the Kingdom of God.
I appreciate your leaning on Scripture to learn what God is telling us, that is what I want to do too. I , too, want to focus on the relationship with the living God, and not on “religion”. If there is a verse you want me to read, I’m open !
On Baptism…
Necessary – Mark 16:16
Immersion – Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12
In Jesus Name – Acts 4:12, Acts 8:16, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5.
These are some, but certainly there are more. 🙂
Amy, thanks for suggesting those verses. I agree we are to be baptized in Jesus name, as we were commanded to do. The heart of the matter is faith. Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” A person could go through the ceremony of being baptized, but without faith in Christ Jesus, it would be no more than a dunk in the pool ! At least that is how I understand it. The thief on the cross was saved by his faith in Jesus, there was no time or opportunity for a baptism…yet Jesus told him ” today you will be with me in paradise.” Wow!
The thief and many others went to Heaven without being baptized. They died before Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. It was only afterward that baptism was required for remission of sins. Luke 24:45-49
Amy, I see this point of baptism saving a person’s soul, is where we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my understanding that it is our faith & trust in the work of Christ, and His paying the penalty for my sins, that saves me from death and gives me the hope of eternal life with Him. I did obey Him by being baptized in the name of the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It represents my dying to self, and rebirth into life with Christ…..but my heart had to be “right.” Because of the grace of God, He blessed me with the gift of faith…I did not deserve this anymore than anyone else, and I didn’t do anything to earn it…so I praise Him everyday that He saved me !
Thank you for politely agreeing to disagree.
Amy…while there are some points we may see differently, it seems we do agree on the main point, that Jesus Christ is LORD…therefore, we are sisters in Christ ! It’s the best family to be in !
With certainty!
I do agree that Mark 16:16 makes it clear that baptism in action, but not in heart, doesn’t accomplish a thing, and that person “shall be damned”.
Hi Ben, I read the links you gave to writings on Catholic positions on “Solo Scriptura” and “praying to Mary”…..as a lay Christian, I will just give a brief answer to explain my position on these matters ( Many books have been written on these things by very intelligent people , I am sure.) Yes, I believe “Solo Scriptura” means That the Bible as a final product of much work, is all we NEED to live as God wants us to. That doesn’t mean we deny the existence of other documents by Godly men. This includes the old and the new testaments, as they are intricately connected. The message from God ,to people, of His plan for our salvation, His love for us, as well as being a guide for daily living a life pleasing to God, is in this final product we call the Bible. If the Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the Old & New Testaments, He could also inspire Godly men who desired to make God’s message to humanity accessible to the public. So, are you saying Catholics don’t trust the Bible as accurate ? Also, are you saying there are some traditions non Catholics don’t do that is required for salvation ? It seems there are quite a few misconceptions Catholics have about non Catholics as well. In regard to praying to Mary, I do see it as blatantly anti Christian….if you trust in Christ, you need no other…He is your eternal Priest/King…you are blessed to be able to pray directly to “Our Father who art in Heaven” in Christ’s name, as Jesus told us in scripture ( is this a part you think is not true?) Thanks for discussing these things with me.
You’re welcome!
(We are supposed to pray for one another. That’s all Catholics do with the communion of saints.)
Patricia,
You are the only commentator on this blog that has steadfastly mentioned actual Biblical scripture regarding salvation. It’s blatantly sad that even Catholic responses to how one is truly saved refer to bishops, popes, etc. as “still discussing the matter”! I happened to be in Vatican City at the jubilee in 2000 when they opened a particular enormous wooden door and said that everyone who passes through it will be eternally saved. Why not? I did simply to get nato St. Peter’s Basilica.
I encourage you to keep on your journey with Christ, and to continue reading the Bible for ALL answers.
I’m still shaking my head at what’s so difficult to understand about how BECAUSE someone has faith, it will lead to “works” – which can be as simple as an encouraging text to someone.
I’m permanently disabled, and am not physically able to do many things that I used to, but I can still serve God and know 100% that I am a member of his kingdom, the church (which is the body of believers, not any form of physical structure).
P.S. As far as Peter and his keys: has anyone bothered to look up the word “context” in their dictionary?
Benjamin,
Are you responding to my March 4, 5:12 pm post, the one with the bull’s eye illustration? I was brought up in pre-vatican II post WWII suburbia. I was still in catholic grade school when vatican II hit. It caused quite a ruckus. Religious relativism quickly became the yard stick against which all truth was to be measured.
I never missed Sunday mass in my teens and for a while I was going to the Perpetual Help devotions on Tues nights. By the time it was my turn to go high school my parents could not send me to the catholic high school they had previously sent my older siblings to. So I had to go to the local public school. It was there that I met a group of bible reading high school kids (many of whom were brought up catholic). We had a lot of discussions and I always took the side of Rome while they took the side the bible. I was always on the losing side. Even though I knew my catechism fairly well they knew their bible a whole lot better. It was Eph. 2:8-9 that did the trick for me.
I would still go to mass every Sunday and even to our parish mid-week religious study groups but started to get disillusioned after a while. Most, (if not all) catholics I talked with could not really defend their faith. (Because it was not really theirs) And the 4 or 5 priest I would try to get in discussions with were just as incompetent or had no patents with me and would tell me to “just believe what mother church teaches”. This all took place in my late teens and into my early twenties.
So the lack of knowledge of others is your excuse for apostasy? There’s no nice word for it, because that’s what you’ve done.
Ben, I am having computer problems but will try to get back to you
Ben, Would you further explain what you mean by “sacraments” needed for our sanctification. Also, do you consider yourself “saved” ?
Define “saved.” Not in the sense of Once Saved, Always Saved. But yes in the sense of having found myself given the faith in Christ and the hope of the resurrection, and for now yes in the sense of believing myself to be in a state of grace.
Sacraments are the ordinary way that God has chosen to bestow graces upon the world, and all of them are through his Church. Does this help?
Benjamin,
You must remember that that was some 40 some odd yrs ago. I was a young man, only a kid in many respects. It was the intervening yrs of bible reading combined with reading and studying the Roman system and history that re-enforced my so called “apostasy” (as you mislabeled) it.
Benjamin, I refer you to my illustration of the bull’s eye in one or more of my previous posts. The Roman system has some good and somewhat biblical teachings in the center, but the outer layers are not just unbiblical, they are useless in obtaining eternal salvation. The religious practices on the outer rim of the Roman system have, (has all scholars of the Roman system will acknowledge) were not part of the original teachings of Jesus and the apostles. And this practices, as you know, developed slowly over the centuries as a natural result of synchronism with the pagan religious systems that Christianity was in the process of displacing. Centuries of pagan practices and religious thought were not so easily eradicated in the centuries subsequent to the death of the apostles and found their way into the official teachings of the Roman religious system.
So, we return to the original topic of the article, i.e. “Why most bible reading, non-catholic Christians do not believe that those trapped (for what ever reason) in the Roman system are truly genuine Christians. As Jeffery, the author of said article wrote, and I quote, “…that Catholics were essentially a Pagan cult”.
And by the way Ben, (may I call you Ben? You can call me Tim) apostasy ain’t all bad. Apostasy from a burning house is a good thing. The original purpose of a house is to be lived in. But if flames start to consume your living quarters the original purpose of the dwelling has been compromised to the point of endangering the occupants’ lives. We even hire professional fire fighters to go into burning houses to encourage and help the residents “apostatize”. Once people are saved from a burning building they have a tendency to try to go back in to save their loved ones who were left behind.
I still have the smell of smoke in my clothing!
In the Love of Christ,
Tim
Regarding pagan influence taking over orthodoxy:
1. Is it true? (Wonder how the Arians, et al, were defeated.)
2. Does it matter? (Do you wear a wedding ring?)
The Church is not burning down but by fires lit by the devil and doused by the grace of God. There’s a reason the devil does not so much bother with evangelical megachurches, or Presbyterianism, or the Anglican communion. There’s nothing there worth destroying that is not already being destroyed.
Yes, Benjamin, it is true and it does matter. History tells us it is true and the reason it matters is that people are putting their trust in the pagan parts of the Roman system in order to get to heaven.
Concrete examples, please.
Ben, 1) Matthew 16:16-19….Jesus is making Peter the head of the new church of true followers of Jesus the Christ, because Peter stated that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the living God! It stands to reason, that if we belong to Christ, and we have the power of the Holy Spirit with in us, and the “full armor of God” Ephesians 6:11; true believers in Christ ARE the church, …”and the forces of Hades will not overpower it. The battle is a spiritual one, and the ” church” I believe this passage is talking about, is all true followers of the same Jesus Peter is following. Don’t get hung up on the grandeur of the material structure of the Vatican…. in Matthew 24:1-2, The disciples of Jesus were talking about the Temple structure ( which was apparently quite impressive, made of huge stones.) Jesus responded with a prediction on how it would all be torn down, as it was in approx 70 AD. I stand by my previous statements, that only those true believers in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, whose names are written in the Book of Life , Rev20:12 are the people of the “church” Jesus spoke about to Peter. You used the Bible verse of Paul’s warning the young church “to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing” who teach a different gospel. I see you do use some Bible verses to back up your opinions, and yet you have expressed some reluctance to rely on scripture alone. I do not see anywhere in the New Testament ( or the old) where the young church was instructed by Jesus or Peter or Paul or James etc, to pray to Mary or any other people who have died…I think this is in the category of false teaching. We are told clearly we have The Holy Spirit who interprets our prayers , and we as followers of Christ , we HAVE GOD’S EAR! The Bible tells us God knows what we will pray before we even speak…but for His reasons He still wants us to participate in a relationship with Him and pray for ourselves and fellow believers, and the lost. The saints in Heaven are doing whatever they do there, but I can’t find anywhere in the Bible where we are told to pray to the other beings in Heaven other than God . So, where did this teaching come from…you speak of tradition…this tradition was not taught to the first century church from what I can read. Is this “another gospel”? Jesus blasted the Jewish leaders for clinging to their traditions, while at the same time breaking the heart of the law…He called them ” white washed walls”, clean on the outside, but filthy on the inside. I do want to know what you believe is as reliable a scripture.
Everyone has this kind of triumvirate of reading. It can be summarized like this:
1. What it says.
2. What I believe, and therefore how I interpret what is said.
3. Me, myself, and I.
With any book, and I mean any book, there is no other way to read.
Scripture: Text, inspired by God. Unchanging, because truth is unchanging.
Tradition: Sense of the meaning of the faith, crisper and sharper through the centuries. This changes, but never contradicts itself.
Magisterium: Uses tradition to read scripture when there are matters disputed. Protected from error by the Holy Ghost, who dwelled within the authors of sacred scripture and certainly the apostles.
Just as faith in the Resurrection is a free gift we cannot merit by ourselves, the truths given the Church are a free gift of God we cannot merit by ourselves. We cannot build ourselves up into doctrines of the faith without some knowledge of the content of the faith.
Ben, you are making what you believe sound mysterious and complicated. As with any written information, it should be taken in context of the complete article…not as a modern sound bite we hear on TV: usually misused because it is taken out of context. Are you saying that what men have added to the Roman Catholic church “traditions” have changed the meaning of what was written by the first century church ? I believe you are a believer in Christ, therefore a Christian, as believers were named starting in Antioch ( I think. ) Before the Roman Catholic church was formed. As with all believers in Christ, we need to make sure we are being taught was is consistent with scripture….I believe this is what Martin Luther was trying to talk to the church hierarchy about. Could it be that those in charge were more concerned with their power and greed, than teaching the truth of scripture. All humans are tempted, and those in positions of power are vulnerable to being corrupted. I do hope your new pope will be able to get the Catholic church government and focus back on track. It hurts to think there are problems in our church…there were problems in the first century church too. What ever the problems may be, the first step is looking to see if there are discrepancies as far as being in line with scripture, as well as any other problem…then work together to get things right. This is something all churches have to do, and yes, Protestant churches have the same struggles. I do like some of the formality of Catholic services, as it reminds us to approach God with reverence.
The Magisterium has never changed the meaning of the deposit of faith, only clarified it.
I’m sorry if I’ve seemed curt. I’ve found that shorter comments are more likely to be understood.
The Church’s teaching has three legs: Scripture, tradition, and the authority of the bishops. These are basically inseparable.
what does the average catholic do when these three disagree?
If I do not understand a thing taught by the Church in comparison to scripture, either I do not understand the teaching of the Church or I do not understand scripture.
Benjamin,
In the ground breaking book on aberrant “Christian” religions called “The Kingdom of the Cults” the late author Walter Martin outlines a definition of a “Christian cult” using 5 major characteristics one of which is an extra-bibleical authority. For the average lay catholic to be a good practicing catholic he must know and obey the writing of the so called magisterium.
The average lay catholic does not need to worry himself about what the Words of Scripture “mean”. He need only “believe” what the magisterium “says” the Words of Scripture means.
Your friend, Tim
One of the characteristics of heresy is its historical novelty.
More to the point, on what basis is that definition of cult? Is it on a historical basis? Is it on a rational basis? Or is it based on the assumption that Protestants are right?
If you use this definition to prove that Protestants are right, and it assumes Protestants are right, you have a circular argument.
Benjamin,
I am so happy you are interested in looking at historic documentation for the pagan origins of many (most) catholic practices. There are so many practices to choose from. How about we look at the pagan origins of purgatory? This is what ultimately initiated the Reformation when pope Gregory the Great went a little too far with the selling of indulgences in order to build St. Peter’s Basilica. Please refer to the following articles. There are of dozens sources. I do not want to over burden you with articles and sources. Here are just a couple. I took the liberty of pulling out a few sentences from each article to keep you from having to read the whole articles.
http://www.puregospeltruth.com/purgatory-purifying-fire-or-fatal-fable-by-mike-gendron.html
The Origin of Purgatory
There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.
The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics “will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames,” and “the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life.” Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra- biblical writings and oral history. “So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity” (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed “Christian” doctrines.
http://pbministries.org/History/Goodwin_&_Frazier/churches_01.htm
Baptist Churches in all Ages by Paul Goodwin & BobFrazier
Chapter 1-Catholicism More Pagan Than Christian
Catholicism was not born in a day. It came as the result of a growth, a development.
In order to understand the origin of Catholicism it is necessary to know something of the state of the religious world when Jesus established his church. Two mighty religious systems prevailed, Judaism and Paganism. Judaism was the religion of the Jews and it was strong on salvation by ceremonies. Paganism was the religion of the Gentiles (nations) and was known for its many ceremonies and many gods.
You don’t have to consider 2 Maccabees scripture to be forced to acknowledge that it is historically a Jewish text. It explicitly favors prayer for the dead, to remit the punishment due sin.
Ben I am afraid you are getting tangled up in pledging your allegiance with an institution lead by men. The true head of the church is Christ; thus we are to be followers of Christ, not men. I do not call myself a Baptist, a Lutheran or any particular group other than a Cristian, and God’s word , the Bible, is the standard I use to judge what I hear from the pulpit. I so appreciate those who preach & teach God’s word well…God’s word is living, and sharper than a two edged sword and is always relevant to everyday life. But I pray for discernment to be able to recognize “heresy” , the twisting of God’s word or just blatant inaccuracies , no matter what church building I am attending. If you do care about following Christ, read His word instead of other stuff loaded on you by church leaders ( they are not infallible.)
Christ founded a Church, for your good and mine. To reject the Church is to reject Christ. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Believers in Jesus Christ as God the Son who died for the sins of man, ARE the church. We are also called “the bride of Christ”. Is it your opinion that unless one is a Catholic, they are not truely Christian ?
If you are baptized, you are Christian. If you believe heresy, or if you are cut off from the sacraments, or if you are cut off from Christian unity and the Universal Church, you are like an amputated Christian. (More shockingly, the part without the source and summit of the Christian life. It’s more like you’re an amputated limb than the amputee.)
Hello Ben, From what you have said so far, it still seems you place more importance on the Roman Catholic system, than the power of the Holy Spirit to help sincere believers in Christ grow in the faith. There are hundreds ,probably more, confessed Christians all around the world, who face persecution ( including being tortured, maimed, and killed.) I recently read a fascinating book: Dreams and Visions, by Tom Doyle, in it several accounts are recorded of Muslims becoming Christians after having visions or compelling dreams of Jesus talking to them. This could be dismissed as a hoax except for the fact the visions & dreams are all so similar, and are occurring in several countries that are hostile to Christians. People in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and more. They report similar experiences. At risk to their own safety, they each sought a person they knew to be a Christian and asked questions…they then attended secret church meetings in private homes to learn about Christ. God reaches people in more ways than we know ! The true church is all around the world . It was quite an eye opener for me when I first saw what was reported by “Voice of the Martyrs”…modern day martyrs who die because they confess faith in Jesus Christ. You might like reading about these things too : http://www.persecution.com. I do recommend the book , it seemed credible, as well as encouraging in these troubling times.
So these Christians, who are touched in an extraordinary way because the Church is not available to them, wish to be in full communion with Christ. Wonderful!
This does not change one whit the fact that the system Christ established — not a denomination, but merely a community against which the gates of hell will not prevail — is not some system founded by Eddy or Luther, Smith or Calvin. It is the faith of the universal Church, and it is in an earthly way headed, as always, by the successor of Peter, who is the earthly representative of Christ, Christ being the mystical head of the Body.
The body of Christ is not a system founded by men, as you say, including those who centuries later formed ” the Roman system”….it is founded by God Almighty through Jesus Christ. NO earthly system is needed to accomplish God’s plan. Because God does want a relationship with us, He wants us to work with Him in the salvation of other souls and the growth of His kingdom , the great commission. The body of Christ will grow with and without the Roman Catholic Church. However, as a Christian, I do still see a problem with the practice of praying “with” or “to” Mary or any other departed soul . Maybe there are other customs that need to be looked at by Catholic Christians, but I myself am not familiar with what you do. The first apostles did not seem to overburden the young congregations with rituals, but kept emphasizing the basics of salvation through repenting of sin and faith in Christ as a gift of the grace of God, etc. Remember the Pharisees added more requirements on the people than God had instructed Moses. Does your faith seem to be a burden to you with all that your church requires of you ?
Jesus founded the earthly system, just as God founded earthly systems all through the Old Testament. To knowingly leave aside this system is to knowingly leave aside God Himself, and, if done with full knowledge and consent, ends in damnation. So there’s that.
His kingdom is not some fuzzy, indistinct thing, any more than the Incarnation was a fuzzy, indistinct thing. His Church is like a City on a Hill, a light for all the nations. It is not like a cloud, or a feeling, because it is something distinct enough to point out.
The Catholic Church neither adds to the Gospel nor removes from it, unlike the many Protestant sects. It does not boil down Jesus into bumper sticker doctrines. It keeps the faith, with all its nuanced subtlety, with all the clarifications throughout all the centuries that all the heresies made necessary.
Agreed, God founded the church, including the earthly systems….and as Paul kept teaching the young church, be careful to be true to the gospel. In 2 Timothy 3:14-17 “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing those from whom you learned, and that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” Don’t you agree that as Christians, we need to be alert for any divergence from God’s word ( Scripture)? I don’t think this attitude is a “bumper sticker” mentality. So, all I am saying is the Catholic church can also go astray, and by the faithful among her should be kept on the right track.
I agree that we must hold fast to the faith. Which is why it is odd that Protestants abandon it, adding things like “sola scriptura” and the like.
Among other things, Jesus told the disciples:
1. I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
2. He who hears you hears me.
3. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against [the Church].
The Church cannot go astray in teachings of faith and morals. Unlike in the Old Testament, these are unconditional promises.
Scripture is what Christians need to be grounded …Christ quoted Scripture. The New Testament teaches us how to stay on the path of following Christ, and living a life that reflects a faith in Christ. It seems , from what you have said,that Scripture takes a back seat in the Catholic church to other things. Again, if you are talking about various rituals ( other than baptism & communion ) being more important than Scripture, we will have to agree to disagree. The body of Christ IS the church, believers everywhere in the world, including those in the Catholic church. There is nothing “fuzzy” about being grounded in God’s word. The Catholic church is not immune to going astray . I am not the one to say what that might be because I am not a Catholic. Christ & Holy Scripture are the rock we should stand on. Maybe I would understand what you are talking about if you told me what it is you think I need to be “Heaven bound “/ written in The Book of Life, since you indicate Protestants are “lacking”. Please don’t just use Catholic jargon without explaining what it is. Thanks.
The trouble is that you are NOT grounded in God’s Word, who is Christ. You are grounded in your fallible interpretation, or some other person’s fallible interpretation, of inspired scripture, which is not the same as the Incarnate Son of God.
That is quite the assumption. Do you read the Bible on a regular basis ? Do your priests have you read along with them from the Bible. What is it that you think I don’t have ? You are still being vague about why the Catholic way is the only correct way. If you are to evangelize people to be a Catholic, you will have to do better then that. In the mean time, I still think I,m OK..so, convince me.
Do you read the Bible on a regular basis?
Yes,
Do your priests have you read along with them from the Bible.
Yes.
What is it that you think I don’t have?
My accusation is not that you don’t read the Bible. My accusation is that you do not read it in harmony with the full sense of the faith. My accusation is that you do not understand the Bible, and cannot understand it, if you deny basic truths of the Bible. (For example, Church structure, which is as clear as the Trinity.)
Yes, non Catholics believe in the triune God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit…and I do. What else is lacking in my faith ,as you define it? Remember that Christ Himself is reaching the lost in Iran and other places hostile to Christianity….so, if Christ does not need the Catholic structure of faith, then just maybe you are hanging on to non essentials.
There are no non-essential doctrines, only non-essential practices.
Or, if you are grasping between non-essentials versus essentials, you are not in the frame of mind which produces worship. You are in one which precludes truly supernatural faith.
Doctrine matters, and is not simple to explain…defining all of this issue is way beyond me ,I confess; However, I do know that I love God, want to glorify Him in my life, and I desire to grow in His truth & Spirit. Being grounded in His word and praying for discernment of His will in my life, as well as being grateful to God for His abundant blessings in my life is basic. Having a personal relationship with the living God is a mysterious, dynamic and amazing thing. I am not about tell you that you are not “born again”…that is, to be filled with The Holy Spirit, which is to confess Christ as your Lord & savior ( according to Scripture). Christ IS the church, He is a person (one of the three persons of the Trinity) not a place. I believe God will bring more souls into His kingdom ANY WAY HE WANTS TO….through the Catholic church and through, yes, even Protestant believers. I really do want to understand the Catholic way more. I am sure you must be thinking about more than incense, Holy water, Mass in Latin, and other rituals. Sorry, I don’t want to be a pest…I should probably just ask my neighbor who goes to a Catholic church. Thanks for trying to explain, I do wish you well !
We can certainly agree here: God will bring souls closer to him any way he wants to. We have scripture backing this much up: He brings us closer to him through the signs and wonders of his Church. He wants to do it this way. In fact, he wants to do it this way so much that aside from Paul it is how everyone in the Apostolic Age is brought to Christ.
It is something to pray about, and to seriously consider. It is through Christ’s established community that we are brought closer to him. “He who hears you hears me.”
God bless!
I have read the Bible passages : Luke10:16 , Matthew 16:19, 18:18, 28:16-20, John 16:13. After thinking about them in light of your comments, I still can not see that it is only through the Catholic church that the faithful are to be brought into the Kingdom of God. In sending the new church with the first 12 apostles out to make new disciples, the goal was ( and is) to “add more workers to bring in the harvest.” The authority to “bind or loose” was given to more than just Peter. Christ’s community is made up of “those who hear Him ” anywhere they are found. In Matthew 12:30, and Mark 9:38-41, Jesus is letting His followers know that there are others outside their small group who are accepted by Him…” Whoever is not against us is for us.” ” Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters.” I still think you are putting God ” into a Catholic box” so to speak, so we can agree to disagree on this issue. I pray we both grow in His Spirit & Truth. And I would be very happy if I could be used to bring more people to see their need for Christ as their savior.
Good start. Did anyone besides Peter get the keys to the kingdom?
(Compare Matthew 16 to Isaiah 22. Parallel ideas, and deliberately so.)
Jesus founded His church on the “rock”, Peter ; But He did not tell His followers that only a direct line decided on by Peter, etc was how to conduct business…it was not set up like the Davidic line of kings. Also, the Roman Catholic church system is not as the first church was, as history records it broke from the Eastern Orthodox church in AD 1054 . As I mentioned in earlier posts, The visible church ,being run by flawed men, can go astray from true/orthodox doctrine; Thus need reform from time to time to be in line with Scripture. The Christian Research Institute stated to me in an e-mail :” Both Roman Catholics & Protestants affirm the essential truths expressed in the three universal creeds of historic Christianity–The Apostle’s Creed, The Nicene Creed, and the Creed of Athanasius. There are, however, important doctrinal issues that divide Roman Catholics and Protestants, which center on the principles of 1) sola Scriptura ( Scripture alone), 2) sola gratia ( grace alone), 3) sola fide ( faith alone), and 4)soli Christi ( in Christ alone). Scripture alone is the final arbitrator of truth as opposed to the Roman Catholic belief in authority of Scripture along with infallible church tradition along with papal authority and apostolic succession. Protestants hold that a person is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as opposed to the Roman Catholic belief in salvation by faith infused with meritorious works. The various Roman Catholic beliefs about Mary, which range from aberrant to even cultic is another dividing line for Protestants.” I do consider you a brother in Christ,and all I am trying to do is get at the truth. It all is to keep us focused on Christ, God in the flesh who died for our transgressions. So, I hope you don’t think I am attacking you, just wanting a meaningful discussion. So, maybe the question shouldn’t assume Protestants don’t consider Roman Catholics to be Christians, but why they don’t consider them on the right path.
“… it was not set up like the Davidic line of kings.”
Christ himself makes the comparison. He is the king, and he has established his servant as a peg in a sure place. He gives his servant the keys, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church.
How can you say that this living authority wouldn’t last forever?
As you have said, Christ is the King and head of His church….He is the chief corner stone . You compared Peter to the “peg” in Isaiah’s prophecy, a little farther along in that prophecy we are told the peg is broken off. Christ the head of His universal church is eternal, as you know.
If you read the whole passage, you’ll find that the end of that chapter is referring back to the middle of the chapter. Compare verse 20 to 25.
Yes, I do agree that Isaiah 22:25 is talking about Shebna being removed from his position of authority.
OK. And the parallel to Peter is with Eliakim, son of Hilkiah. So … you’re retracting your earlier claim? Because I would happily agree.
No, I have not changed my position…I stand by what I believe to be truth as I have explained in my earlier posts. We should keep on seeking God’s truth with His guidance….but at this point we will have to agree to disagree.
On what basis? It seems that Jesus is rather directly paralleling Isaiah to illustrate how he wants his Church to be formed and therefore how he wants his people to come to him.
To remain outside this community knowingly, or to not care, is therefore very serious.
It seems you are missing the point: The Kingdom of God is within, Jesus is the chief cornerstone, Eternal priest , King of Kings. No one comes to the Father but through Him. His church is made up of His followers everywhere and through all of time. The Roman Catholic church is not exclusive, and is subject to needing reform from time to time to be in line with Christ. Remember how Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple….corruption creeps in, no human organization is immune. The point is Christ, not the Roman Catholic institution. As all of Scripture teaches us, God wants our hearts, not empty words..that is what He looks at.
“The point is Christ, not the Roman Catholic institution.”
If the point is Christ, what Christ wants matters. And Christ wants you to listen to his apostles, and by deduction — lacking other revelation — their successors:
“He who hears you hears me.”
How can you possibly dodge this?
stop, all of you!
Christian means “Christ follower.”
Not Catholic follower or Protestant .
He died on the cross to save Catholics, Protestant , all his children. Those that believe and except that,are Christians as long as they love accordingly.
Don’t judge one another that is for God alone. We were commissioned to LOVE one another as He has loved us.
God Bless all of you!
Mikki Johnson
I think that if a non-catholic would attend mass and hear the confession of the creed, they would be hearing the profession of faith of a Christian community. If they read the early church fathers, then they might see that the church of the followers of the apostles was very Catholic. If they would read the conversion story of a Scott Hahn they would hear a testimony of a Catholic Christian (Home Sweet Rome). If they would go to prison or to a Catholic soup kitchen, they would see sheep that belong to Jesus.
On the issue of praying to those in heaven. Who did the people think Jesus was crying to on the cross? Matthew 27:47 Why would they think that if it were not a Jewish custom?
Jesus was crying out to God the Father, when on the cross. attempting to contact the dead was and is forbidden by God. I believe you are a Christian, you are also committed to the Catholic Church . I also am a Christian, just not a Catholic. I believe that to be OK too.
They are not dead. They are alive, in Heaven. Our cloud of witnesses praying to God on our behalf, as they always have, is totally findable in scripture.
If Jesus established a particular visible community, why would it be OK to go off and join some other one?
We are forbidden by God to try to contact the dead…they may be in Heaven, but they are dead to us here on Earth. See: Lv 19:31, Lv 20:27, 1Sm 28:7. Jesus taught His disciples to pray to “Our Father who is in Heaven….”. There are Christians all around the world, some are Catholic and some are not….the point is Jesus knows the ones who belong to Him. See Mark9:38-41, John said ” Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he wasn’t following us.” Jesus said ” Don’t stop him, because there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name who can soon afterwards speak evil of Me. For whoever is not against us is for us. And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of My name, since you belong to the Messiah- I assure you: He will never lose his reward.” See also Luke 9:49-50. I consider all true Christians, Roman Catholic and otherwise, to be my brothers & sisters in Christ….Christians are the church….the body of Christ. I am seeing that it may be Catholics who don’t think Protestants are Christians, not the other way around, maybe ?
Some Protestants, like Mormons and those without a valid baptism, are not Christians.
But who cares about labels? The point is the reality. The reality is that Jesus founded a community, and you are spending your time outside of that community that is your birthright by baptism.
Alter calls and “the sinner’s prayer” are for people who see their need to repent…this is Scriptural. Baptism follows repentance as commanded by Christ. In the church I attend, babies are dedicated to the Lord and the parents as well as the congregation promise to teach them to live a life pleasing to God. Some Protestant churches baptize infants. How are people in the Catholic church invited to commit themselves to God ? Mormonism is considered a cult as their doctrine is not orthodox, as well as other factors. The point has been stated before, by Paul in Romans 10:9-11, ” if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. Now the Scripture says, No one who believes on Him will be put to shame, for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Rm 10:9-13.
Look carefully at how you’re evaluating “the sinner’s prayer.” This standard you use to show that this is scriptural is a low enough bar to prove the Papacy, the Mass, Intercession with the Cloud of Witnesses, and half of the Marian dogmas.
What are your thoughts?
Ben, would you elaborate about what you thought was the lowness of the bar on the sinner’s prayer in my comment. Also, why would the “cloud of witnesses” in Heaven be available to us to pray to / and why would we when we can pray to God Almighty Himself, with Christ on our behalf ? The angels can watch us too, and we sure don’t pray to them.
Just wanted to make sure you know that I do not doubt for one second that there are many committed Christians in the Roman Catholic church…we certainly have that in common. It is just a few of the practices that seem to be in question by non Catholics that are not orthodox when compared to the early church. I am not well versed on this subject, but these practices in question and the debate about them are easily found on line. I do enjoy talking with you as a fellow Christian.
I’m glad that you’re enjoying this back-and-forth.
If your problem are practices not found in Scripture, then that is actually a stronger claim than most Protestants make, in part because a lot of modern practices — altar calls, or the practice of making sinner’s prayer, for example — are not found in scripture either.
Here’s a good sinners prayer, said at the beginning of mass:
I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
Also in confession we are encouraged to say the Act of Contrition:
My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and
failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us.
In His name, my God, have mercy. Amen.
Also, on the topic of who we call Christians:
Isn’t it interesting that Jesus pointed out the failings of Samaritan theology (John 4:22), yet he chose to use the Samaritan as an example of someone with a right and good heart (Luke 10:30-37).
On “praying to the dead”. Jesus died and yet we pray to Him. We do this because we believe He was raised and is in heaven. So if we ask the saints to pray with and for us, we do so only because we believe they aslo have been raised and are in heaven. I hope to have a job in heaven (like Moses did in coming to talk with Jesus at the transfiguration). I also hope that I will be able to pray to God, in His presence, for my loved ones and all who ask me to pray for them.
Yes, that is a beautiful sinner’s prayer. Jesus was unlike any other human to walk on earth, He was God in human flesh, both divine & human at the same time. He, being God, is the only one qualified to die once & for all to atone for the sins of people who repent and trust in Him. As the book of Hebrews is very clear in teaching us, He is our priest and King for eternity. He is the only mediator we need to come before God’s throne in prayer. Mary and all the apostles, and prophets were humans like you and me, they are dead to us now, but alive for eternity in Heaven. So I do believe the law God gave Israel not to consult mediums or sorcerers to contact the “departed”, is still in effect for us today. Jesus is God the Son, and in His name we can freely and with confidence pray to God the Father. We also have the Holy Spirit who , Scripture tells us, interprets our prayers when we don’t even know how to pray for the things on our hearts. So rejoice, we have a direct line to God , use it often ! In the transfiguration, the three apostles were blessed with being witnesses to it. Seeing Elijah and Moses just proves we will see many other people in Heaven….Jesus , nor any of His apostles told us to pray to anyone other than God the Father in the name of God the Son. Both the book of Romans, and Hebrews are a wealth of teaching, and very reassuring too !
Patricia –
The practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us was always a part of the early church. Most (75%) of the Christian world today continues to use this gift of God. Only after the reformation did anyone object. If God could not allow mere humans to participate in miracles, then we should not ask God to help other people – they should ask for themselves.
Why did God allow Peter to convey God’s healing power? That was a form of intercession too. God allows us to participate.
Please check out what Christians did before the 16th century. I was raised Lutheran and had that tradition as my filter to what was proper. I have loved learning the depth and history of Christian teaching that I was missing. I’m still working on it. I encourage you to study the early writings, not as scripture, but as documentation of what they taught and how they fought heresies with the help of the Holy Spirit. Compare what you believe about the Trinity and look for it explicitly in scripture. It is there, but it was not clear until the church defined and explained it. God bless you! Oops, interceded again.
I agree , God knows what we are to pray even before we pray( according to Scripture) He is omniscient, but He wants us to pray for others ( intercession), to be in relationship with Him and be part of what He is doing ( Kingdom work). But, we are praying for other living people, NOT those who have “departed” this world. Please show me in Scripture where we are told to do this . I need all the prayers I can get, so thank you ! And I pray for you too, that He will increase discernment of His truth ( for me too).
Psalm 103:20-21
Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
David is asking the angels to praise God?
Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.
Who are the elders presenting the prayers to God?
Matthew 22: 31-32
But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Doesn’t this say that these men are not dead, but alive in heaven?
The Bible must be interpreted. I believe God gave us a teaching authority in the church. Otherwise it is one person’s opinion against another’s. If God can use the authors of the books of the Bible to reveal His will, then you are listening to the words of dead people, right? But the Bible is alive as if God Himself is talking to you. Someone decided that our Bible is reliable. That was people, the church, who had the authority to declare which writings were true and holy and which were not.
I’m new to blog commenting but I know I’m way off the subject that started this discussion. I’ll just be done by agreeing with the author that many people don’t know what the Catholic Christian Church teaches and much of the blame is due to our (my) failure to let them know.
The fact that human beings that loved and served the Lord on earth, and have died to the earthly existence, and are now in Heaven for eternity is not in question….I fully agree with you that they are there, and I do hope to be there too when my time has come. I just want to point out that it is clearly stated in the book of Hebrews, that it is Christ who represents us before God the Father, and we need no other , in the heavenly realm , to help our prayers be heard. We and our fellow believers are supposed to pray for each other , as well as help in other ways when needed, as members of the body of Christ. The Bible tells us clearly that we have God’s ear because we belong to Christ. I can not say it as well as Scripture, so I encourage you to read the book of Romans and Hebrews.
I do believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. The men who wrote it are dead to us now, but God is alive , omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent ,and His words are alive and “sharper than a two edge sword “; they are always relevant . So I fully agree with you there ! But the men who did the will of God and wrote these things down, are now in Heaven. We are not instructed to communicate with them from this side of the grave….and we have no reason to, as far as I have learned.
I’ve been reading these posts and concur with Benjamin regarding the teachings of the Catholic Church. Patricia, I continue to see that you can’t understand that, as Catholics, we don’t pray TO the dead or TO the saints, or TO the blessed mother, but WITH them, just as we pray WITH other people.
Jesus did indeed pay the price we owe for our sins, but does that mean we get off ‘Scot-free’ with all the sins we commit after baptism?
Jesus paid the price, but WE ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE for our sins.
If you believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, by who’s authority were books in it, omitted? Martin Luther argued that 1 and 2 Maccabees did not belong in the canon of the Old Testament, even though they had been accepted by the universal Church from the time that the canon was settled.
Joshua 5:14 – Joshua fell prostrate in worship before the angel
Daniel 8:17 – Daniel fell prostrate in terror before Gabriel
Tobit 12:16 – Tobiah and Tobit fall to the ground before Raphael
Matthew 18:10 – the angels in heaven are always before the face of God Note: We venerate angels because of their great dignity, which comes from their union with God. Saints are also in united with God. Veneration nor honor IS NOT WORSHIP. Catholics worship GOD/Jesus alone!
Bonnie, glad to hear you don’t pray “TO” departed saints, that does make a Protestant squirm. If a heavenly being in all their glory stood before me, I would probably fall flat on my face too. I am not a theologian, nor have I done any formal Bible schooling….so roughly speaking, I can say that Protestants see Scripture as the final authority as opposed to the Catholic church being the final authority. The Hebrew Old Testament has a different order than the Old Testament we use today, however, the content is the same, and therefore is the same as Jesus used and considered to be God’s word. If Christ didn’t add or take away from it, than why should we ? The main thing is Christ, and we just need to keep Him the focus of our worship. I agree, now that I belong to Him, I want “the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart” to be pleasing in His sight….and I screw up daily. But the Holy Spirit has begun a good work in me, so I persevere in growing in my Christian walk in His strength not mine ! It is so refreshing to talk to other people who want a God filled life…..watching the news, and listening to all the strife in the world, and things like the gay pride parade going on can dampen our spirits….so it is nice to hear from you !
I now can respond to your comment on Psalm 103:20-21….I needed to read it and think about it. David is giving homage to God. Singing let everything praise the Lord, or let all the angels praise the Lord, or let all god’s people praise the Lord, is not really telling them to do this, but expressing with exaltation that it is so, as it should be! Angels are created by God, as Scripture tells us, and exist in Heaven with God to serve Him. Apparently, they praise Him continually ( and no where in Scripture do we see angels taking orders , or even suggestions from people). When we pray “let your kingdom come, let Your will be done” we are not telling God to do this, because nothing will hinder God’s plans. Saying it just makes us acknowledge it and be part of it. Anyway, that’s as best I can express myself on that point. These discussions are a good way to make us read and think about Scripture !
I found your blog interesting and thought I would make a comment. I am a protestant Christian of the Presbyterian denomination and a descendant of John Knox, one of the leaders of the reformation. I was never taught that Catholics were not Christian, but that their tradition was different than ours. You talk of “political propaganda” by protestants during the reformation. Clearly there was propaganda on both sides, but there were ills in the Church and reasons for the reformers to split. The dialog between Martin Luther and Erasmus during this time is very illustrative and represents the positions of two spiritual leaders of the time–one that advocated reform through a new church and the other that advocated reform from inside.
It is clear that today, great efforts are being made among the Christian churches to reach a higher level of communion. It is my understanding that there is full communion between certain branches of the Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church and the Anglican and Catholic Churches are seeking rapprochement. The theological traditions of these are closer than between the Reformed Protestant tradition and the Catholic–we don’t venerate saints in the same way or view Mary’s role in the same way, as examples. However, the most fundamental beliefs are close enough that we can have a dialog and consider each to be of the same Christian religion.
Many, perhaps most, protestants respect and have enduring affection for John Paul II and have warm feelings and great hopes for Francis. There can be love and respect between us even if we disagree on certain aspects of theology and ceremony.
We do and can consider them to have some of the same religion. Protestants are sometimes faithful to the traditions they were taught, but others jump away in favor of Mormonism, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Unitarianism. Some Protestants are faithful to their partial canon of scripture. In this there is some cause for rejoicing.
However, Catholics cannot consider Protestants to have the same religion. The Protestant denial of the priesthood results in the Protestant denial of the sacraments which means the Protestant reality is so much emptier than the Catholic reality. Even those Protestants who have not jettisoned the forms of the priesthood, like Lutherans and Anglicans, have lost valid Orders. Unlike the Orthodox and all the other schismatics from before 1517, they are therefore not substantially living the sacramental life, and therefore are not and cannot be substantially living the Christian life.
This is, really, the sorrow of the Church — that some are not equipped with the fullness of the faith, and face the Devil with but baptism, and even then only sometimes. No amount of mere dialog can fix that. Especially in the case of the Protestants, only formal reunion can fix that.
Ben, just want to clarify that by Christian standards, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Unitarianism are considered cults…they do not believe in the deity of Christ, thus it is a different Jesus they follow. A very important distinction.
Mormons do believe that Jesus is God, but also that he is a created being, and Unitarianism tends to believe in a New Age or eastern pantheism these days, where everything is God. But you’re right, that by the standards of the historical Church, they do not believe in Christ’s divinity the right way.
But then turn to sacraments. Do they believe in a priesthood as the early Church did? And do they believe in baptism the right way? In this sense, the various Protestant communities are in exactly the same boat — and have basically exactly the same wrong thinking/wrong doing — as the sub-Christian sects.
While the point of the Church is not doctrines but Christ, right thinking and right doing — orthodoxy and orthopraxis — because are absolutely essential to having the fulness of revealed truth are absolutely essential to knowing Christ.
I am doing some study on the things you say other Christians need….in the mean time, I do pray God will bless you in many ways this day and all week !
I will leave you with two things:
1. If the Eastern Orthodox broke away before the Protestants in 1054 and they have all the same sacraments under different names, then the Romans having the sacraments cannot be a matter of medieval corruption. Where did they come from? Well, we say from the early Church.
2. Here is a Pentecostal leaving the faith of his fathers for the Church. (Also, depending on where you come from, The Journey Home might be a wonderful resource for you.)
I will take your cause to the Lord tonight, Patricia. God bless you on your journey!
The Catholic cannon was created from how many books?? And the protestant cannon from those, correct? Which was the more strict and God inspired? Can you judge one any more than the other? And since the greek word for worship meant to bow and pray and Christ commanded to worship no one else, isn’t it in direct disobedience to the direct commandments of Christ to light candles, bow, and call upon anyone but God Himself? Fools arguing among fools is all this is and all it will be. Sadly.
Makes no sense to say Catholic Christian. Catholic is Christian. Catholic simply means Universal. Ben has it correct.
It’s the other way around
Benjamin is correct!
I re read Amy’s comments, and only found her thoughts on baptism and speaking in tongues and baptism of the Holy Spirit. I did offer my input ( with scripture reference) on those matters on the June 12 post….what did I miss ?
I agree with Patricia, remember Jesus stating that one MUST be born again. Being baptized is Not considered being born again FYI. …2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”…
What is your argument against being born again in baptism? Paul would certainly disagree with you. In Romans 6:3-5, he explicitly identifies water baptism with being born again — in baptism you are buried with Christ and then raised so that you may live anew. He makes the same argument in Colossians 2:12. Titus 3:5 also connects the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit with the corporal washing with water of baptism.
Now, perhaps you have some alternative interpretation of the scripture. Fair enough, how do we decide which interpretation is correct? One clue is to look at how the scripture was interpreted by the apostolic fathers — that is, those who were directly taught by the apostles. In Justin Martyr’s first apology, among the earliest christian texts outside of the Bible, he writes “Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3].” Where would he get an idea like this, if not from the apostles and their immediate students? Ireneaus, the student of Polycarp (who was a student of John), wrote “For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’” Similarly, Tertullian wrote “”[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life.’” We see remarkable uniformity in belief on this issue in the second century all across the Christian world, from Asia minor (Polycarp) to Gaul (Irenaeus) to Africa (Tertullian in Carthage, Clement in Alexandria) to Rome (Justin Martyr, Hippolytus in the early third century), to Antioch (Ignatius). Again, I ask, where did this belief come from and how did it get spread across Christendom in a remarkably uniform fashion in the next generation of Christians after the apostles, with no controversy, unless it was what the apostles taught?
Those who defend interpretations of scripture that are utterly foreign from what the earliest generations of Christians after the apostles taught have, I think, an extremely high burden to prove that their interpretations are accurate. If it is what the evangelists meant, certainly there would be at least some second century author that agrees, no?
Surely you don’t believe the water of baptism has special power. Abraham “believed God, and he was considered righteous…because of his belief..his faith. It is a matter of the heart. Unless a person has faith, being baptized is just a ritual and will not make anyone a true “born again” Christian…..But, with faith, it is a public witness of faith in Christ, and a symbol of death to the old self and new life in the Spirit…being in dwelt by the Holy Spirit! When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman, at the well, He told her about the living water He had…THAT is special water! If you can shed more light on this subject for me, I thank you in advance.
Jesus stated one must be born again three times within scripture.
“What do Protestants want the Catholic church to do, such that if it is done, Protestantism will end and they will become Catholic again?”
This is the question that led me to read Martin Luther’s 95 theses. I expected to find denouncements of Marian theology, the Eucharist, and other Catholic doctrines that Protestants now reject. Instead, Luther’s theses only reject the Catholic doctrine of indulgences and vaguely question confession to priests and papal authority. My quest to understand modern Protestantism gets more interesting…
I told some Protestant friends that for the first 1500 years of Christianity it was taught that bread and wine become Jesus’ real body and blood during consecration of the mass. I asked them, “Was this doctrine which Protestants now reject, wrong from the beginning?” Their response blew my mind. I expected them to open the bible and make scriptural arguments against it. Instead, they said in different ways, “Does it matter? Isn’t loving\accepting Jesus the most important thing?” To me this seemed the equivalent of a husband asking his wife to do something, her refusing but telling him she loves him anyway. How could Protestants refuse to obey Jesus’ commands to eat his flesh and drink his blood then say it didn’t matter because they loved him anyway?
After much thought I’ve reached the conclusion there is nothing apart from an act of God that will bring American protestants back to the Catholic Church because the primary difference isn’t doctrinal – it’s cultural. Americans want choice and believe they have an inherent right to it. Coupled with a distrust\dislike of authority in general, you have the modern American protestant idea that they should be able to worship God the way they want, usually with rock music. It reminds me of a saying:
“Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise.” -Sam Pascoe
Ted, you made a good observation about Christians in America. I agree too many church leaders seem to be trying to “please” people in order to increase attendance, as Paul says ( I can’t find the verse right now, sorry) but he uses the illustration of ” tickling the ears” of the congregation with things they want to hear, instead of the truth of the gospel. I believe the Bible is God’s revealed truth to us, and what is taught in churches should be based on what scripture says….sometimes the truth will make us squirm, but it is for our good. Our culture worships at the alter of “self”, instead of seeking the kingdom of God first. I have struggled with this, and know it does take a conscious effort to want to be living a life pleasing to God. The only doctrines of the Roman Catholic church I can’t follow are: (1)Ascribing Mary equal status with Christ for our salvation through Christ. Correct me if I misunderstand this, but when Mary responded to Gabriel “I am the Lord’s slave…may it be done to me according to your word.” Luke 1:38, she is submitting to God’s will, not giving God permission. Thus, I do not agree that so much focus should be placed on Mary in worship , and with rosary prayers….I see it as distracting our focus from Christ. (2) Calling priests “Father”, as we have one heavenly Father and one mediator, Jesus Christ….He is our God, King and Priest forever. Priests/popes/ bishops are all infallible human beings. What our priests and pastors teach us should hold up what scripture says. (3) Jesus did tell us to take the bread “it is my body”, and drink the wine, “it is my blood” …..”do this in remembrance of me.” “This is the new covenant . But , it seems clear that He meant this was a “symbol” of His sacrificing for us, and that we need to do this to remind ourselves what He did for us. Not, that the juice and the wafer actually turn into His flesh and blood. I am convinced through reading scripture, that it is our faith , believing that Christ as God incarnate, died on the cross for our sins, then rose from the dead on the 3rd day, and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. We can not “earn” our way into heaven,, that belief denies what Christ did on the cross. But yes, our sanctification is ongoing…but we are His ! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I meant to say Priests, etc are all “Fallible”, not infallible.
Mockery of Christ and scripture, you stand-out like a sore thumb when pretending to evangelize.
Pretending?
I believe the word Christian is used out of context today and not as it was intended when First used in the word of God in Antioch in Acts 11:26 It is not about who is wrong or right in posting what there personal beliefs are but what the word of God says Being in Christ defined by the Word of God means Having a personal relationship with him through his Son Salvation Romans 10:9-10 Putting your personal relationship with Christ above everything 1st Corinthians 13:13 God left his written word for that purpose Psalms 138:2 through his son 1st Timothy 2:5 and to prepare for the day that we will stand before the Lord, the righteous judge at the Judgement seat of Christ 1st Corinthians 3:10-15, 2:Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10-12
I agree, Richard, as people we have to want a relationship with God. ultimately we will have to see our unholiness compared to God,s perfection…thus our need for a savior. As scripture tells us, it’s a heart thing. If we really have a heart for God, our lives will show it as He changes us from the inside out and our behavior shows “the fruit of the Spirit.”
The reason why Christians should not pray to or request intercession from dead saints:
The bible forbids communicating with the dead.
“Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.”
Saint: Someone in Heaven, which means with Christ, for all eternity.
Christ: Way, truth, and life.
Is anyone dead in Heaven?
Jesus is God, He can talk to anyone He wants to, in this earthly life, or beyond this life. the point is, we can talk directly to God, because we only need one priest /mediator, and that is Jesus the Christ. Why would anyone pray to any other than God, if we can go directly to Him…is Christ not enough? Either He is enough, or we all have a problem.
I think you are missing the point. Are you saying it is wrong to ask your pastor, or your father or friend, to pray for you? Since Christ is enough, it is wrong to pray for one another and to solicit prayers in our times of need? I really don’t understand that point of view. There is nothing wrong with asking others to pray for you, and the saints in heaven are a great cloud of witnesses. As for your suggestion that Jesus’s behavior would have been sinful had He not been Jesus, I don’t even know what to say to that.
John, it seems we are both missing each other’s point. I have learned that you don’t think it strange to ask prayer from saints in heaven. For me, to pray to those people who are in heaven just does not make sense….yes, of coarse , Christians pray for each other in this life. The statement about the “cloud of witnesses” is not telling us to pray to them…only that there are many saints already in heaven, who have been through the trials of this world. No where does scripture tell us to pray to the departed…but it does tell us in many places to pray to God…Jesus was a revolutionary when He told His followers to pray to “our Father in heaven”, as the Jews never addressed God with such intimacy. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail about Christ being our eternal Priest and King, and that He is our mediator with God the Father…..so where do all those departed saints come in? It just isn’t logical. But, if you can show me where it tells us to pray to them, I will read it. We are on the same side here. I just pray more and more people turn to Christ.
Well, one possible source of miscommunication is that you continue to characterize the catholic practice as praying to the saints. We don’t pray to saints. We only pray to God. We ask saints — fellow Christians, alive and dead, to pray for us. I’m not sure what part of scripture you think excludes asking those who have departed to pray for us. We certainly don’t require people to ask the saints for prayer. I’m certainly not telling you that you need to do that in order to be a proper Christian or something of the like. The question is whether the practice is valid. It seems like you are trying to argue that it is wrong to request prayer from the saints. I don’t understand what basis you have for that — it is clearly not necromancy or consulting an oracle or anything of that nature. I get this sense from protestants in general that they think any kind of practice that isn’t in the Bible explicitly is somehow prohibited. That seems silly to me. Certainly such a rule cannot be found in the Bible.
John, you are correct in that, no where in scripture do we see the Jews, or the followers of Christ praying to departed saints…or asking them for prayer; That would be why I find it strange as if someone just decided to make this up as a reasonable thing to do..although I see it as taking the focus off Christ. So, as love you as a fellow in Christ, but we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Fair enough, we might have to agree to disagree. But I still feel like I don’t totally understand your reasoning. Why would the the status of a fellow Christian as alive or deceased make a difference with respect to asking them to pray for you? If asking a living friend to pray for you doesn’t take the focus off Christ, I don’t see how asking a deceased friend to pray for you would. I suppose if it was some sort of zero-sum situation — that is, requesting, e.g., St. Francis to pray for you came at the cost of praying for myself — but that is no more likely than asking my pastor to pray for me comes at the cost of praying for myself. It is, of course, a non-essential practice (just as asking your pastor to pray for you, or engaging in prayer chains — a practice found no where in the Bible, incidentally, yet still undoubtedly a great practice — is non-essential). But that doesn’t mean it is bad or in some way harms one’s relationship with God.
John, I have been thinking of how to respond to your question : what is the difference between asking living or departed saints to pray with us. Again, I first relie on God’s word…what does He say about our worship and petitioning Him in prayer. No where in scripture do we read about the ancient Jews nor the first century Christian, nor Christ Himself communicating in any way with departed people to ask for their help, intersession , or any kind of blessing etc. Asking your living friends and family to pray for you is a whole different matter…we are all here in the flesh, praying to our Father in heaven through THE ONLY MEDIATOR we need , Jesus the Christ. Praying to anyone else in heaven is taking glory away from God, and really is idolatry. So like the people were told over and over throughout scripture, “put away your idols and turn back to God!” He hates idol worship …no matter how nice a spin you put on this practice of “venerating”, or praying with the saints in heaven, you are caught up in idol worship. That is the truth of the matter as I see it….some where long ago the church leaders added this practice, and it should be thrown out! So this is a BIG issue where we will have to agree to disagree.
According to scripture, all those who consider Jesus Christ Lord and savior of their lives are considered “saints” living or dead.
So you think it was a sin for Jesus to talk to Moses and Elijah? Or perhaps you are interpreting this text wrong. Indeed, asking someone to pray for you is not the same as *consulting* them. The communication is one-way. And we know they are watching, as they are a “cloud of witnesses.”
I agree the Roman Catholic Church is not from god
It has too many man made traditions and rituals as a Protestant or the Lutheran faith
I agree Mary is the mother of god and she was ever virgin but not that she is not infallible or sinless or was immaculately conceived by her mother Anna or a mediatrix or co redeemer nor should we pray to her or any saint we need to pray to the father the son the Holy Spirit alone they are due all glory and worship also I must reply to kips comments the saints are not dead because their is no reason for them to worry about what happens here on earth they are in glory with the lord forever in heaven like the verse says in the Bible absent from the body present with the lord and Jesus said I am the god of the living so the saints are made alive in Christ and yes I believe the bread. And wine christ is truly present and they are his body and blood of Jesus we do not know when or for how long the Holy Spirit is present on the holy gifts on the altar we do not adore the communion host nor do we parade it around in a sun shape holder bowing and worshipping it
The Roman Catholic Church the first church the one true church of God. Jesus told us that a house divided against itself cannot stand. You think the 30,000 Protestant denomination argument can stand?
God examines the heart and tests the mind….God knows His people. Those who confess with their mouths that Jesus is the Christ, and believe in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead, and obey Him….these are the true Christians, no matter the denomination. A true Christian should always compare doctrine against scripture to make sure it is consistent. It is by faith we are saved, NOT of works, least anyone boast. Christ was tortured and crucified to save us who trust in Him….to think we also have to earn salvation by our own efforts, is to deny the work of Christ. We do good works BECAUSE we love God, not to earn salvation. The Holy Spirit changes us from the inside out, and how we live our lives should reflect our love of God and the lost. We are to tell others the good news of God and make disciples for Christ ( God does the work in the heart, but since we don’t know who He will choose to save, we are to tell all that opportunity provides.)
The true church of Christ is not a denomination!!!!!
I think it really comes down to one simple question, “who is Jesus Christ” ?? If you as a catholic understand he is in fact, God, Many catholic people that I converse with try to make him out as a great saint, or man of God, rather than being God in the flesh. To me that is the difference between most catholic and most protestants.
If they actually believe those things and don’t just seem to, then they are not believing Catholic doctrines, or formed in the Catholic faith, or professing revealed truths.
I think you or your friends are deeply, deeply confused. We condemned Arianism at the Council of Nicaea, 1000 years before Protestantism was even a gleam in Satan’s eye. Some modern day protestants are Arians — e.g., Church of God, Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses — but Catholics have acknowledged the divinity of Jesus for 2000 years.
I am Catholic Christian. I just had what seems to be a splitting argument about this very question of “Christian Catholics” denomination with my girlfirend of 1 month now who I am finding out is a staunch Reformed Calvinist. All I can say is she seemed to have been taught radical things against Catholics and her views are very radical and expressed in a tunnel vision. I can only imagine from how she gets worked up and extreme in her judgement that whomever taught her this strong aversion for Catholic has dark and ominous feeling in their hearts. It seems that hate speech would have been used by those preachers. Even though i can see many things in the Catholic Church that are questionable even for me, they seem far more off the road than us. I can only pray for her to get out of their grasp but her behavior is that of someone who has been enbrigaded in a cult and brainwashed and she watches their videos daily.
I find it all too common for protestants of the reformed tradition to flippantly remark that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon and similar inflammatory statements. I really cannot imagine a less Christian attitude that one could take. It is very sad. I wish these people were familiar with 1 Corinthians. One would think that people who claim to value scripture would take seriously the criticism Paul offers of those who form denominations and throw around insults at other fellow Christians. The things these people believe about the Catholic Church are insane. They accuse us of teaching that we are saved by works, as if we didn’t condemn Pelagianism a thousand years before their schism was even invented. Where’s the Christian love? It is very disturbing, especially because the theology that these people tend to adopt insists that John was mistaken when he wrote about mortal sin, and that they cannot lose their salvation, no matter how severely they reject the Holy Spirit — from that standpoint, I can see why one might not have an aversion to calling the church a “whore.” It certainly is not all reformed Christians who are like this–indeed, I would suspect that no one who is truly a Christian would say such things–but as I said, it is all too common.
I am so sorry you had to deal with people like that too. I would hope they are few and far between. I agree they do not show the fruit of the Spirit with that attitude. Praise the LORD, HE is risen! Have a joyful Easter.
Jon, I am so sorry you are feeling attacked , for your faith by someone who claims to follow Christ. Not knowing this person, I can only say that she is not offering her views in a spirit of love. I became a Christian at the age of 40 and over the years have learned a lot. This could be an opportunity for you to help her grow by helping her learn about the fruit of the Spirit, and how to talk to a brother in Christ with respect and love when discussing doctrine or any other topic! hang in there, and my God be with you in this.
I think the whole issue of Catholic vs. Protestant can be summed up and destroyed very easily. First of all, there are saints in both groups. Because ‘faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the Word of God(or about Christ).’ Romans 10:17 This means that any establishment that uses the Word of God and teaches the Gospel of Jesus as the Savior, will have saved individuals in it. They will be part of the elect. Because the tool of salvation is the Word of God. This allows the Holy Spirit to work in faith, which is what saves us. Think abotu it this way, there are two distinct entities of the Church. There is the invisible Church. anyone who believes in Jesus as their Savior is part of this church. Then you have the visible church. That is the brick and mortor, place of worship church. Not everyone in these buildings is saved. So there will be Catholics in heaven just as their will be protestants in heaven.
The problem that I have, and I feel all Christians should have with the Catholic Church, is that they have allowed false teachings to enter into their church and in some cases have allowed them to overshadow actual doctrine and scripture. This is a very dangerous thing. And undoubtedly is the reason that many Catholics that I know have fallen away. They are taught that they can earn their way into heaven. This is a cornerstone teaching of the RCC. It is in the Council of Trent and has never been renounced by the Vatican or any pope. This is a fatally flawed teaching as it tells people they have a part in their salvation. We don’t. Christ called us and redeemed us form evil. He literally bought us back with his own blood and suffering. To say that we as humans need to do things to earn salvation really detracts from what Christ did. The RCC also practices idolatry, which I know many Catholics have a hard time grasping, but it is in fact true. Praying to Mary and other saints is worship, and to worship anyone other tahn God is idolatry. Christ says that no one can come to the Father except through Him. (John 14:6) So trying to go to the Fathe through Mary or any other saint is again, taking away what Christ did and does for us. You see a common theme in many Catholic traditions of basically detracting from what Christ did. This is the work of the Devil. He wants all to fail, he doens’t want anyone of us to be saved, and since believing in Jesus as our Savior is the one and only way to be saved, teachings that detract form what Christ did would be working to accomplish the Devils work. This is why many believe the papacy and the RCC are in fact the AntiChrist mentioned in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2:1-11. When you look at what has come out of the office of the pope over the centuries from a doctrinal stand point, it really does start to make sense. The office of the pope has exalted itself above God and everything that is worshipped. They also established themselves in God’s temple, the christian church. And what better way for the DEvil to steal souls than to say, do and proclaim things that sound like they could be doctrinaly correct or accurate, but are in fact poison to your salvation.
Finally, Paul addressed the entire problem of bickering and fighting over labels of faith. The Gospel is what is important, not the faction of Christian church that teaches it. I myself have gone to a Lutheran Church my whole like. WELS synod to be more exact. But I don’t go around saying I’m a Lutheran. I am a Redeemed child of Christ. That is all. And the fact that many Catholics cannot dettach themselves from the word Catholic at all, tends to tell me where their hearts are. Not that it matters what I think because God is the only one who can see what is in someone’s heart, but Jesus does tell us we will be able to tell his chosen ones based on their fruit. And doing good works to earn heaven as opposed to doing them to glorify God, is not good fruit.
I urge every child of Christ to continually read God’s Word. Don’t relax on it, because that is when these types of false teachings crop up. Don’t allow Satan to gain a foot hold in your church or your heart. And above all, pray for your fellow Christians that we may all remain faithful until the end.
That is a basic misunderstanding. The Catholic Church has condemned Pelagianism, and even semi-Pelagianism, for 1500 years, a full millennium before Protestantism was invented. In so doing, the Church declared that there is nothing that a person can do to earn his or her salvation, or effect or cause his or her salvation. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and that process involves an active faith, a faith you perform, not a faith that is in thoughts you have or in words you say. Furthermore, the Catholic Church and an assortment of Lutheran churches have reconciled and acknowledged that they teach the same thing on justification. It is easy for partisan-minded people to look at the wording of ecumenical councils and creedal documents and create divisions (despite Paul’s very explicit warning to the Corinthians about the perils of making schisms, breaking off from communion with one another by forming denominations), but the simpler explanation is that those people misunderstand what they read, not that God failed to protect His Holy Church from falling into grave error.
Roman Catholic doctrines that go against the Holy Bible: (1) Purgatory (this denies Jesus’ redemptive work on the cross and goes against Matthew 1:21 and 1 John 1: 5-10 [especially v. 7]; (2) transubstantiation (Read Hebrews to see how this goes directly against God’s true Word); (3) the priesthood (directly in opposition of Hebrews 4:14); and on and on and on…heretical teachings that take the focus off of Jesus and onto “the church”. Repent of your sins and believe the true Word of God. Oh, and since the Roman Catholic church canonized 2 “saints” this past weekend…the bible explains that saints are followers of Jesus who believe in His works…not in ours, because our works, if needed for salvation, are filthy, dirty rags in the eyes of the Lord….again, because it’s all about Him, not about us.
If you want to genuinely dialogue about these doctrines you will have to do more than provide a list of complaints paired with scriptural references. Obviously we disagree about how to interpret the cited verses. It does no good to say ‘transubstantiation is wrong, see Hebrews’ because it lends itself to responses like ‘transubstantiation is not wrong, see John chapter 6’ (concerning which there has been detailed exegesis on this page — you need to address the arguments that have been made if you want to advance the conversation). I can tell from your list that in many cases you either misunderstand the catholic doctrine or are just being flippant with scripture. You don’t have to agree with the Catholic scriptural arguments, but you do need to be aware that they exist if you want to engage them.
The suggestion that there is no priesthood because of Hebrews is outrageous — Hebrews establishes first and foremost that Jesus is the high priest. Just like before Jesus came, there is one high priest at a time, although there are several clerical priests (levites in the old covenant), and of course the entire kingdom of Israel were priestly in a different sense (Exodus 19:5–6). I Peter 2:4-8 also suggests a universal priesthood, which we believe extends to all baptized members of the Church. Now, we could disagree about whether or not the successors of the apostles have a special priestly function along the lines of the tribe of Aaron in the old covenant, but nothing you have said has any bearing on that debate. If you accept the books of the New Testament canonized by the Church, you cannot deny that a) Jesus is the high priest; and b) there are other priests among us followers who are to offer spiritual sacrifices. Indeed, most catholics and protestants agree on those points. There is certainly no scriptural evidence against the view of pastors as having a special priestly role, so it is outrageous to just assert that Hebrews 4:14, which establishes that Jesus is high priest, somehow is relevant to that question.
You clearly misunderstand Purgatory. It is not a ‘place’ that anyone goes, and no one spends any ‘time’ there. Nor is it a punishment for sin from which somehow the redemptive work of Christ did not secure our release. Think about it this way: when you die, and go to heaven, there will be a moment where you are aware of all the sins you committed in life, right? And being aware of those sins, and the pain you caused others by disobeying God’s commandments, is not likely a pleasant experience. It is sorrowful to reflect back on one’s sins, but in heaven we are free of them, sanctified, since nothing even the slightest bit unholy is in heaven. So that point of reflection is purgatory. Protestants and Catholics both believe in it, we just have different names for it, and people who like to make polemics and run down other Christians like to turn it into a fight or an insult rather than trying to understand where the other is coming from.
You clearly misunderstand what it means to canonize someone as a saint in the Catholic Church. They are canonized because they are role models of faith — because they faithfully followed Jesus and believed in his works, as you say. Obviously all the elect are saints — canonization is just a special honor given to those who the Church regards as worthy of imitation. Paul repeatedly exhorted the communities he founded to imitate him, for the same reason. Nothing about the matter somehow invalidates the status of all the saints in the church who haven’t been formally commended. I’m a convert from Lutheranism, and in my old church, when pastor who had been with the church for 50 years died, we held a memorial service and had a plaque installed that recognized him for being a wonderful role-model in Christ. That’s no different from Catholic canonization ceremonies.
I encourage you to read your Bible, pray, and ask the Lord for wisdom and understanding, and an attitude that is a bit more constructive and a bit less dismissive.
The only sacrifice that is required ,now that Christ is at the right hand of God, is the sacrifice of praise and worship of God. The priests of the OT could not cleanse the people of sin, that is why they had to continually offer the sacrifices at the alter of the temple; however, Jesus offered Himself up as God’s perfect lamb, as the final sacrifice once and for all! Notice how, as Jesus predicted, the temple was destroyed and has not been rebuilt……no further sacrifice needed. Yes, we are all disciples of Christ, and are to tell others of the gospel…but Christ does not have to be sacrificed again, even symbolically! He is our priest and king forever and ever…as scripture tells us clearly.
We don’t believe that Christ is sacrificed again, even symbolically. The sacrifice was once and for all what was needed. We believe we join ourselves with that sacrifice through our faith, which is what we express in mass. But the question here was whether or not any form of priesthood continued after the new covenant was established. My argument is simply that the Bible says, very plainly and explicitly, that yes, of course it does. I’m very surprised that you would disagree — most evangelicals accept the universal priesthood of the baptized based on I Peter 2:4-8…
Thanks for clarifying….yes, I understand about the universal priesthood of believers; it is also explained by saying, we are all disciples, we are all evangelists, and we are also all theologian’s. The very reason we do need to grow in God’s Spirit and truth, and to understand why we believe what we believe, and how to defend our belief.
I leave with one lesson from Jesus himself which most can agree on….Love God with your whole mind body and soul and love one another as you love yourself. If you do these things you are in union with the Lord and following HIS will. LOVE is the key people and until we see unity, tolerance, humility, wisdom and love in all people and religions we are no closer to the Lord then anyone else. The truth is Love and your acceptance of Jesus as your Lord and Saviour.
By the way I am a practicing Christian that is Catholic.
I recognize that all religions have some truth and if born again Christians would stop arguing with me about my Catholic Christian Faith they would see we have more in common then not. I try to live in the way Christ would want by allowing my actions speak for me. Therefore I say Peace be with you, I will pray for all who know and do not know God and hope that someday we can all come to respect that all Christians in many different Religions and Faith all wish for the same things, the message is the same….the Good News that we are saved by God’s infinite mercy and love through Christ Jesus via God the Father and the Advocate Holy Spirit ONE GOD FOREVER AND EVER AMEN.
I am not judge I leave that for the Lord and I know that HE sees and loves us all. So stop debating who is right who is wrong, stop condemning those who love the Lord in their own way and you will see HIS grace and love in your life daily. It is so much easier to be pure in heart when you see good in all things.
Just stumbled upon this conversation and have enjoyed it greatly! One thing that hasn’t been brought up is the Scriptural source of many Catholic prayers, including the Hail Mary. The first line of the prayer honoring the Mother of God is a repetition of the Angel Gabriel’s address to her: “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee” (Lk 1:28). The second line is a repetition of Elizabeth’s greeting to her: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” (Lk 1:42). And the third line is a request for her prayers, since she, like all the “saved,” is promised eternal LIFE, not death: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death, amen.” We ask her to pray for us at the two most important times in our lives: the immediate moment, and the moment of our death. The potency of her intercession on our behalf is shown in Scripture at the wedding feast of Cana, when Jesus, who states that His time has not yet come, bends to her will and performs His first miracle to provide for the needs of those hosting the wedding.
It still doesnt prove that God says we r to pray like that…just cos some one said statments in the bible does not make them a pray…
This topic has been extensively discussed on this page and I encourage you to examine that discussion. In short, Catholics do not worship Mary, nor do we worship statues. We ask Mary to pray with us. Whether that is efficacious is certainly a debatable proposition, but it is no more worshipping Mary than you would be worshipping your Pastor by asking him to pray for you.
Second, in contrast to protestant theology influenced by the tradition of sola scriptura, we do not look to scripture to “prove” the legitimacy of every practice of ours. Certainly, we believe scripture is the Word of God, and would not endorse any practice in conflict with scripture as we understand it, but we read scripture in line with the Holy Tradition within which it was inspired, copied, transmitted, interpreted, and interwoven into two thousand years of ecclesiastical practice. And if you think about it, every Christian must engage in some worship practices that are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture. For a simple example, most Christians sing hymns with the lyrics printed in a hymnal (or, sad to say, projected on the wall). Nothing in the Bible proves that God says we are to do that, to paraphrase your argument.
I hope that was helpful. We will pray for you — please pray for us!
Why is it ok for catholics to speak to ones who passed on and its say in the bible that mediums are evil…someone tjat talks to the dead….how do u know the images of mary that people c isnt the devil himself…it says in the bible he will show as good but is not ….it says Jesus is the new….why all the old…it says in the bible to sing n rejoice we only to our lord….not mary or st whoever…i wrked in a lot of bars in and around where i live n 60% of catholics would go to church tje drink in the bar the rest of the day and or nite n its ok??? Not according to tje bible…u seem i am not judging i am just saying what i c….u have this old religion u practices n wen Jesus can along u just addd him n didnt care what he said u where to focused on hailing to mary who mine u is only the mother of Jesus the flesh not of God him self he didnt have a mom….i havent gotten any answers of proof….everone sounds like our president beating around the bush with all kinds of stuff but no proof….
One quick, obvious difference between the communion of saints and the consultation of a medium/spiritualist: When you consult a medium, the dead talk to you.
Additionally– Jesus told us that He is the Life and the Resurrection, and whoever believes in Him shall live forever. So we don’t think of the saints who have passed away as dead; indeed, our faith insists that they have eternal life. Instead, we agree with the anonymous author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, that the saints who have passed away make up a “great cloud of witnesses.” What do witnesses do, if not a) observe and b) testify? In Revelation, John describes a vision of angels along with saints in heaven delivering up prayers for the church. So we know from scripture (that is, bracketing off Holy Tradition for a moment), that those who have fallen asleep in Christ can witness our actions and can pray for the Church.
How do we know images of Mary aren’t the devil? I don’t understand this question. Why would you think an image of Mary, or of Jesus, or of the cross, would be “the devil himself”? That strikes me as a very peculiar and idiosyncratic suggestion. In any event, we don’t worship images: we wholeheartedly and unequivocally reject idolatry.
As for the rest of your comments, I must say that it is difficult to follow your prose. It would help if you would write in complete sentences, perhaps separated into paragraphs. I’m not sure what you mean by old and new. While we don’t think drinking alcohol is necessarily a sin (after all, Jesus’s first public miracle was to turn water into wine), but anyone who does not drink in moderation (let alone drinking all day and all night) is clearly engaging in sin. I don’t doubt that many Catholics are alcoholics (we often call those people “Irish”) — but the Church certainly does not teach that alcoholism is a good state of life.
I’m sorry you don’t feel your question about proof has been sufficiently answered. If perhaps you engaged directly with what I wrote about that, the source of misunderstanding would become clear. I suggest you go back and reread what I wrote, because I really made an effort to write a thoughtful response and I’m not sure how you didn’t find it even partially meaningful.
I wasn’t being facetious when I asked you to pray for us, nor when I said we would pray for you. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always!
Another answer to your question is that we do not consider the saints to be dead. While it is true that they are in heaven with our Lord, they are very much alive. Miracles that have been attributed to them have been documented and investigated. All good things come from God. There isn’t any trickery in that. It is a promise from our God his self.
So mericals dont come from God they come from a saint…would u help me find that in the bible plz
Dearest Mary there are many examples in the Scriptures of God working miracles through others. Moses and Ezekial are two that you are probably familar with. The New Testament also talk of the apostles performing miracles after the Holy Spirit decended upon them in the Pentacost. We as Christians know that the power of miracles comes from God however we are his hands and feet. Truly blessed are those our Lord chooses to use in this way. That is what I am referring to when miracles are attributed to the saints.
I know hey happen through God…mosses was here to do God work…but these saints…i dont get it they r no longer here n who makes them a saint? God? But if we can talk to anyone that has passed from earth then why r medium evil…
Mary I’m very sorry that you don’t understand the fact that the saints are not dead. This doctrine has been explained many times in this thread. Please go back and read the previous postings.
Athena, certainly I know that saints who have died live on, as we hope to, in heaven….but they are dead and gone from this life and thus no longer available to communicate with us…nowhere in scripture is communicating with departed saints supported. Only omniscient God Almighty knows our thoughts and hearts..and as scripture tells us, He knows what we will pray even before we say the words. At some point this practice of asking departed saints to protect us and to pray with us got started;However, Jesus only told us to pray to our Father who is in heaven. We have God’s throne we can boldly approach ,because of our submission to Christ, we don’t need saints in heaven to help us….and there is no supporting scripture OT or NT to even make us think they can hear us…they are not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent as God is.
Patti this also has been explained. For the Catholic church does not teach sola scriptura. You seem a wise and educated person. You know that the early church fathers are the ones that met and decided which scriptures would be collected and but into the Bible. There are also other books in the Bible that reformists themselves decided to remove because they were not written in Hebrew but in Greek. It seems very silly to insist to the church that was formed in the first century before the Bible was even put together that the traditions of the church are incorrect or as even some have suggested evil. This subject has been discussed many times over.
Athena, with all due respect, the Bible we do have is very clear on God’s command to not try to contact the dead (those departed from this world). King Saul decided to have a medium contact Samuel for advice, instead of consulting God! Jesus also made it clear who we are to pray to, and did not advise us to talk to the departed saints, only God! Catholics point out that they use other books not included in the Bible; do any of these books advise communicating with saints in heaven? Such a practice as this would not be consistent with any of the canonized books of the Bible, or practice of the OT or NT or in accordance with God’s commands. Paul’s letters to the early churches warned of false teachings, and to be careful not to teach any other gospel. As human beings, we may have good intentions but can still be wrong in God’s view. I am not a scholar with degrees, just striving to learn God’s truth as well as to understand why we have such divergent practices while both loving Christ.
Mary, the Bible is full of miracles done by saints alive in this world….but I agree , scripture does not tell us to ask departed saints to pray for us or to depend on them for safety or help. We are told in scripture that it is the Holy Spirit who intercedes for us to help us pray to God the Father…as only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God. We have Almighty God Himself on our side, and as Christ told us, “I will be with you always…” I have brought this up before, that ONLY GOD is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent…these are attributes of God alone;thus, saints alive in heaven do not become like God in this respect. I have not gotten any information supporting the Catholic view on this. It seems wrong to assume they do, and not lean only on our Lord. To God be the kingdom, power and glory forever!
I never said that and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that. I’m beginning to wonder if you are a serious individual…
Thank you
Orthodoxy is not considered apostasy by the Magisterium of the Roman church. Both Western church and Eastern church are considered fully “catholic”. I am an Orthodox Christian and often celebrate the Literagy with the Roman church as my husband is of that tradition. Our bishop is very happy for me to share in the eucharistic sacrament but encourages me to also maintain the traditions of my own church.
Athena, Which Orthodox church do you belong to? My understanding was that the discipline of Eastern Orthodox churches was to not take communion at Roman Catholic mass (even though from the Catholic perspective, you are welcome).
I am Greek Orthodox. While it is true that it is normally the dicipline Of the Orthodox persuasion to not take communion in Roman churches,this is starting to change. I am a historian and understand a little more fully the reasoning behind this. During the Great Schism both churches excommunicated one another, however this excommunication was recended. Therefore the reason for not allowing a shared communion technically no longer holds water. I have spoken with priests from both churches and they have both told me basically the same thing. Both churches are fully whithin the apostolic line. It is really more of an individual choice for me and our priests have left it that way for us. The Orthodox church is more closed in the receicving of the Holy Eucharist though. My husband was not able to receive in the Greek church.
Please join me in praying for complete healing of the catholic churches that they will all return to one communion with one another.
Patti, I believe you are equivocating on “contacting the dead.” There is a huge difference between divination and requests for prayer. Further, as has been stated again and again ad infinitum (and you even conceded this point elsewhere), Christians do not die when they pass away. We believe that they have eternal life. When Jesus and his disciples saw Moses, they weren’t engaging in divination. When Jesus appeared to his followers after being crucified, no one was “contacting the dead.”
Your position here is extreme and outrageous, I’m afraid, if you think through all the implications. Under your view, it would be “contacting the dead” and a grave sin to go to a graveyard and say a few words to a loved one who passed away. If you really believed what you said, if someone went to the grave of their deceased spouse and said “I love you,” you would condemn them. That is beyond the pale. If you can’t distinguish that kind of activity from divination, I’m not really sure what to say.
Finally — and we’ve been through this again and again — Catholics do not believe in sola scriptura. Therefore, we do not feel compelled to find “proof” for every practice we engage in in the Bible.
Yes, I understand you do not depend on scripture alone, but also on what you refer to as tradition. All I am trying to point out is that from what I have to go on, is that this practice of talking with departed saints must be a new tradition started after Christ ascended to heaven. And if so, who started it? I am not suggesting that a grieving person who speaks to their loved one , who has died, would be offending God! God knows our hearts. Rather,it is the accepted practice of depending on help from saints in heaven to pray with you and asking protection from them, ie St.Christopher, when traveling, or the like, that seems wrong . It seems like ideas started by people without any basis on Christ’s example. Don’t doctrine and scripture have to be in agreement? People in heaven may have some awareness of events in the created world, but why is it presumed they can hear individuals here when we pray….from what I have learned, we can only be assured that God knows our hearts and hears our prayers, and we should not pray in error by presuming people in heaven can also. I respect you as a true Lover of Christ, as well as a more learned person than me; but there is truth here and that is what I want to know. I think this is an important issue, but certainly none of it should cause a riff between fellow Christians. So, bottom line is, I know what you believe, I just don’t know when and where it started.
Lots of Christian practices started after the Ascension. Heck, every book of the New Testament was written after the Ascension and the Acts of the Apostles is almost entirely about that period, and details a variety of traditions that began then, including the idea of calling ecumenical councils to settle matters of doctrine. Do you sing hymns printed in a hymnal? Do you read a printed Bible? Those practices postdate the Ascension by more than one thousand years.
I understand where you are coming from. My point about deceased loved ones was to militate against the claim that addressing those who have passed away falls under the biblical prohibition against divination or ‘contacting the dead.’ Who can really say what the experience of being in heaven is like? The practice of asking fellow Christians for prayers is useful and Godly even if it turned out that they couldn’t hear, I think. In any event, it is a fairly minor issue doctrinally — though ‘the communion of saints’ is an article of belief required of all Christians, practices like requesting prayers from angels or Mary or other Christians who have passed on are not obligatory…
During the Protestant Reformation, the Reformers invented five Latin solas (sola means only), that summarized their protestant belief system about getting “saved”. They are :
Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
Solus Christus or Solo Christo (“Christ alone”)
Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)
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Let’s take a look at these and see if they are still viable today. The first thing that is striking is that if they are all “alone”, then why do the other 4 even exist? In other words, if we are saved by scripture alone, then why do we even talk about grace or faith? Why do we need scripture when we are saved by grace alone? And are any of these “alones” in the Bible? A quick search shows that only one of the solas, the words “faith alone” does appear in the bible, as follows:
James 2:24:You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Strange that the one sola that does appear in the bible contradicts the very sola itself. Works (good works, not useless Jewish works of the law) are part of being justified. The Catholic Church teaches that justification begins at Baptism, when the Holy Spirit comes to us, even while we are infants. And “being saved” is a lifelong journey that doesn’t end until we die and are allowed into heaven. A lot of Protestants talk about “when they were saved”, as if it’s in the past tense. Catholics would agree that whenever you began taking your faith in Christ seriously was certainly a great time, but it was only a first step, not the entire journey. What really counts is your faith at the time of death, not your faith when you first started believing 20 years ago.
The next one is “Scripture Alone”, which does not appear anywhere in the bible. The text most often used by protestants to back this one up is:
2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
However great this passage is, the word “alone” does not appear in it anywhere. The word profitable does not mean only. If it did, then Titus 3:8 below would mean that good deeds are all we need to be saved:
“The saying is sure. I desire you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to apply themselves to good deeds; these are excellent and profitable to men.”
Applying the word “alone” to scripture also means that anyone can properly interpret it, without the Magesterium and Sacred Tradition. In other words, the Catholic Church only claims infallibility with the official documents of the Church, spoken “ex cathedra” (“from the chair”) by the Pope. This sola claims that anyone and everyone who interprets scripture on their own is infallible! And how wrong is this today, with over 30,000 Protestant denominations, with some even claiming that homosexuality is no longer sinful!
The next one, “Grace Alone”, isn’t found in the Bible either. Catholics would agree that we are indeed saved by grace, which is a free gift from God. Where we differ is the method of how we receive that grace. The Catholic Church regularly dispenses sanctifying grace through the sacraments. The protestants believe that God just gives them grace whenever He wills it, sacraments or not. The Catholic version of this one would be that we are saved by grace, which increases our faith, and leads us to do good works as a very necessary fruit of our faith.
The fourth one, “Christ Alone”, also sounds great. Who could argue with the fact that we are saved by Christ alone? The problem with this is that the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Spirit, also plays a HUGE role in our salvation. According to the bible, we are temples to the Holy Spirit. Peter and the other apostles all followed Jesus and ate with him, talked with him, and tried to follow him. It wasn’t until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon them that they received power (Acts 1:8). Catholics receive the Holy Spirit at Confirmation, and can receive Him again and again through the laying on of hands by charismatics (to reinvigorate your faith). And what about the role that the Communion of Saints plays in our salvation? They lead us to Christ, as do our parents, our friends, and our fellow Catholics. The whole problem with this particular sola is that it isolates us into a “Me and Jesus” scenario, where I don’t really need a Church or a family telling me what to do. And that is so wrong. Jesus set up His Church for a reason, to be His Kingdom on earth. And this sola allows for no glory to God our Father, who we pray to each and every time we say the “Our Father” prayer.
The last one is Soli Deo Gloria, or “Glory to God Alone”. This one also sounds like a winner. However, there is one problem with it. Jesus Himself said in John 17:22 that He gave His glory to his apostles (at the Last Supper, when He gave them the Eucharist). And while none of the apostles’ lives or works will save us in and of themselves, they are indeed one with Christ (1 Corinthians 6:17) and they are partakers in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). It really is okay to venerate the saints, which is not the same glory and honor we need to give to Christ. A lot of protestants confuse veneration of the saints with glory to God. Mention the Communion of Saints to a Protestant who says the Apostles’ Creed every Sunday, and you will usually get a blank stare back. In other words, most Protestants who recite the Apostles’ Creed say they believe in the Communion of Saints, but they do not know what it means. What it means is that the saints in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us, and who help us in our journey in this life. After all, Jesus says that they are ALIVE (Luke 20:38). And since they are partakers in the divine nature, according to 2 Peter 1:4, that means that they can hear us and help us.
Catholics could come up with a lot of these solas. Since the bible says that we must eat and drink the body and blood of Jesus to have life within us (John 6), then we could say that we are saved by “The Eucharist alone”. And since Paul talks about the value of personal suffering for the Church in Colossians 1:24, we could say that we are saved by “Suffering alone”. And since the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15), then we could formulate the doctrine of being saved by “The Church alone”.And since we have to be forgiven for our sins before we can enter heaven, we could come up with the doctrine of “Confession alone”. And how many more of these could we invent if we had the time? Lots. But to no purpose whatsoever. The Bible was meant to be taken as a whole, and to not be broken down into parts for convenience’ sake.
To sum up, all of this shorthand abbreviation for our faith in the 5 solas leads us away from the rest of what is necessary for salvation, like the Church, the Sacraments, prayer, helping the poor, performing good works, etc. After all, why do all of that if it’s just me and my bible, me and Jesus, me and whatever. http://www.catholicbible101.com/thefivesolas.htm
I agree with the bulk of this but we Catholics have always embraced Sola Gratia ever since we condemned both Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. St. Augustine developed the doctrine. The protestant error there was in thinking it was an innovation of theirs. It simply means that no one can come to faith in God except through grace, which is freely given to all (and not to some as Calvinists heretically insist).
One of Martin Luther’s invented theories from the 16th century was that “The Bible Alone” is all that is necessary to understand God’s Holy Word – No Pope, no Magesterium, no man, no woman, no university, etc., is necessary to understand what God meant to say in scripture. A scholar, a milkmaid, a janitor, a slave, a freeman, etc., can all grasp the complete meaning of scripture without any other aid or person. Why? Because in Luther’s mind, the Holy Spirit comes to each of us to impart the truth, whether we are scholars or not, whether we understand Latin and Greek or not, or whether we are holy or not. But we all know that this isn’t true. For starters, there is the King James Study Bible, complete with “doctrinal footnotes.” Doctrinal footnotes “explain” the meaning and context of certain parts of the bible that the average reader may not know about. But if “the Bible Alone” is all we need, then why are “Doctrinal footnotes,” which are NOT scriptural, added to scripture to explain it? Is the Holy Spirit asleep or something? Why are man-made footnotes even needed if “The Bible Alone” is all we need?
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And if “the Bible Alone” is indeed a true philosophy, then why do some Lutheran Churches like the ELCA say that practicing homosexual ministers are OK, and other Lutheran Churches like the Missouri Synod say that they are not? Both Churches are descendants of Martin Luther, and they both use “the Bible Alone” as their method of studying scripture. There are approximately 33,000 different protestant denominations today, all using “the Bible Alone” as their tradition. But they all interpret the bible differently, or they wouldn’t be a different denomination. Is the Holy Spirit divided?
Just for fun, let’s use the King James Bible and the tradition of “The Bible Alone,” and see what we come up with. We won’t use any other reference sources, because to do so is to admit that “The Bible Alone” is not true.
Numbers 24:8: The Lord brought him out of Egypt; he hath the strength of a UNICORN.
— Using “the Bible Alone” theory, we can conclude that unicorns are real creatures, not imaginary.
2 Thessalonians 2:15: Therefore brethren, hold fast to the traditions ye have been taught, by word or by epistle.
— Using “The Bible Alone” theory, we can conclude that traditions are good, whether they are written or whether they were orally taught.
James 2: 20: But will you know, o man, that faith without works is dead?
— Using “the Bible Alone” theory, we can conclude that good works are a necessary component of our faith, and are not “useless.”
Romans 2:6: For God will render to every man according to his deeds.
— Using “the Bible Alone” theory, we can conclude that God will judge us according to our deeds.
Revelation 20:13: And the sea gave up the dead in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that the dead will be judged according to their works.
Luke 1:5-6: There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that there are indeed righteous people in the New Testament besides Jesus.
Hebrews 10: 26-29: For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour them. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
2 Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter is worse with them than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog returned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that people can indeed lose their salvation after having been “saved,” and the “once saved, always saved” philosophy is unbiblical and a tradition of man.
Acts 8: 26-31: And the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, “Understandest thou what thou readest?” And he said, “How can I, except some man should guide me?” And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that scripture is hard to understand, and we need someone from the Church to explain it to us.
Romans 11:26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,” There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that every Israeli ever born, including Caiaphas and Judas, will be saved. All means all, after all!
1 Corinthians 3:13-15: Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall disclose it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that on our judgment day, some will be saved after undergoing a trial by fire, and some will go directly to heaven with no purifying fire.
Acts 7:2: And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that it is OK to refer to men as a “father.”
2 Corinthians 1:1:Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Corinthians 2:13: I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that Timothy and Titus were the blood brothers of Paul.
Hebrews 13:10: We have an altar, that they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that a church must have an altar and a tabernacle, which provides sacred food that unbelievers do not have a right to eat.
1 Corinthians 10: 16-21: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the alter? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.
— Using “the Bible Alone,” we can conclude that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ and not symbolic, and it is a sacrifice akin to the altar sacrifices of the Jews and the Gentiles. Otherwise, Paul would not have compared it to them.
This is just a sampling of what “the Bible Alone” theory offers. Most protestants will tell you that what YOU have come with using “the Bible Alone” is erroneous, while what they came up with using “the Bible Alone” is of course infallible. But that argument fails on two counts – first, if “the Bible Alone” is true, then whatever one comes up with is true, since the Holy Spirit is guiding that person, and second, if no person is infallible, like they claim about the Pope, then how can what they come up with be infallible?
We can make things more difficult than necessary. As I understand the 5 components of “Solas” , they do all go together : many verses from the Bible can and have been twisted and taken out of context to support numerous false doctrine. When considered as a whole, Scripture most certainly supports that our salvation is a gift from God……By grace alone through faith alone inChrist alone; we deserve death, but instead God gives us the forgiveness we don’t deserve (grace), because of what Christ did for us. By the mysterious workings of God in us through the Holy Spirit, we believe in Christ Jesus, thus faith is a gift. By faith in Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us and we are indeed “saved”…..those who fall away, were never truly saved! Sanctification is a process that continues as long as we live on earth. A person who has a true “deathbed” conversion is saved, as the thief on the cross. And yes, all the glory goes to God alone…as everything was created by Him through Him and for Him! It is a mystery, as quoted in Romans 9:15,”For He tells Moses:I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Not everyone will be saved. We do not know who God chooses to have compassion on, thus we spread the gospel message to all people, and God does the rest. Scripture alone means God’s Holy word is the standard that actions and teachings should be consistent with. I don’t see why we should not agree on this much.
Fellow believers, one thing is certain… We have got to stop bickering and fighting with eachother using our interpretations, opinions, thoughts, human tradition, ect. To bicker about the Bible or religion. As Christians, Catholic or Protetant, THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN THE END IS JESUS CHRIST, AND THAT ACCEPTING HIM ALONE IS THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION. So as we walk on the path of salvation, let us not drive wedges between ourselves and knock people onto a wayward path, let us stop the arguing, join together and simply acknowledge the one fact that we all have in common: we believe that Jesus Christ is the son of the living God, and we accept him as Lord and Savior, and repent of our sins through his sacrifice. NOTHING ELSE TRULY MATTERS…….
I am earnestly seeking a denomination that is not Anti-Catholic or Anti-Protestant, simply scripturally based and seeking to know our Father, Creator and Sovereign Lord. Does that exist? I firmly believe Catholics are Christians and Protestants are Christians, many in both may profess but do not bear fruits…I just find it arrogant and self-serving to argue who is the ‘better’ Christian…outside of my acceptance of Jesus Christ, my Savior, I seek only to follow Him, not to dissect/analyze/condemn or praise the parts of the body of Christ but to use the fruits He instills in me to serve Him…does such a worship place exist? I know it does in my heart, just very hard to find in a sanctuary.
Nondenomantional…thats ur answer….
Mary,I appreciate your desire to find a place to worship that seeks unity among believers. This is a Catholic blog, but I will still suggest that you at least consider a reformed Protestant congregation which bases doctrine on Holy scripture. At this time, I attend a Baptist church whose mission statement is to “love God, love people, and make disciples for Christ.” One of the points our pastor was making last Sunday (teaching from 1Timothy, with a reference from Revelations) was to remind us that knowledge is not enough, we have to have love for other people. Christ’s message to the church in Ephesus ,although they were commended for some things they did, Christ found their love lacking! A good reminder for us always! I do hope and pray you will find a local church home to be a part of. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. We are to strive for unity among believers! Blessed are the peacemakers.
U miss understood my church teaches the love of Jesus we dont care what church ur from we welcome all from Jewish baptist methodist we welcome all n teach out of the bible the love faith , all out of king james… i was a baptist but i moved and found this one its very much so bible bassed…i think out of 200 pluse relitives of mine i am the only one not Catholic….we have no issues as long as we love n know Jesus die for our sins…i just choose not to do all the treditional things….
Hi Mary, yes I certainly made a mistake….it was Tara who was looking for a suitable church for herself, and I responded to your post in error! I am glad you are happy with your church, I also agree with what you said. The teachings in any church need to be sound in scripture based doctrine, and the messages need to be from God’s word, the truth…not watered down to please people, but to keep us on the path of wanting our will inline with God’s will. Thanks for your sharing , I appreciate you. I can tell you love our LORD!
Hi Tara, well I did just write a response to Mary that should have gone to you (please just ignore me Mary!) I just suggested you might consider a reformed Protestant church, as the doctrine is Bible based. I attend a Baptist church, and I assure you there is no time wasted demeaning or being critical of Catholic or any other Christian groups. This church’s mission statement is to “love God, love people, and make disciples for Christ.” I am so glad when every week our pastor uses scripture to keep us focused on the Right things. After a year of studying the book of Luke, he has just started preaching and teaching from the book of 1Timothy. Our pastor says he feels he is doing a good job if his sermons make us a little uncomfortable. He keeps us humble and encourages us at the same time. I hope and pray you find just the right local church for you!
The Catholic Church doesn’t worship the same way that it did in the 1st century. It has added so many innovations to the faith since Vatican II. Traditionalists will even agree with this! Only the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church has kept the Holy Tradition pure!
That’s really quite silly. Of course the Catholic Church has the concept of the development of doctrine — but the Orthodox Churches have that concept too. Indeed, the liturgy of John Chrysostom, used in most orthodox churches, does not go back to the first century, and includes some “innovations” that are unlikely to be in, e.g., a reconstructed version of the liturgy st. mark left to to the Alexandrian church. Whether they acknowledge them or not, the protestant reformers invented countless “innovations” during the reformation in both practice and doctrine. That isn’t what makes the protestant reformers false prophets — but their unwillingness to acknowledge / ignorance of the novelty in their innovations does.
It would not be possible for a living church not to adapt to its times. Certainly any attempt to do so would be incompatible with the project of doing theology. Orthodox theology is quite rich — you should familiarize yourself with the theological traditions of your church rather than writing them off with some kind of paleo-traditionalist ideology… The Catholic Church didn’t start “innovating” with Vatican II (and what, are you as an Orthodox Christian upset with… using the vernacular? what specifically about vatican II do you think is an unacceptable ‘innovation’???). We started “innovating” before the First Council of Nicaea, indeed, before the Council of Jerusalem (if indeed the council described in Acts is even historical). Scripture itself speaks to innovations occuring during the life of the apostles. Opposition to all “innovation” as a rule is nothing less than opposition to Holy Tradition.
In my opinion, you are way off base in calling Protestat reformers false prophets. As I understand it, the Catholic Church holds the Bible to be the Holy word of God. The reformers took objection to doctrine that is inconsistent with scripture that is God breathed ie, the doctrine of justification by faith alone…just to name one big objection. Scripture, as God’s revelations to people,deserves first place as the standard that doctrine must be in agreement with. The Catholic Church leaders added things not consistent with scripture such as making Mary a “co-redeemer” or so it seems ,taking away from where our focus should be, on Christ. He is the only mediator between us and God the Father. If we are to pray to Mary to ask her to intercede for us, why is this not found in scripture? Why is it OK to add this practice…might this be a false teaching added by men? The glory all belongs to God…He never changes.
Well, I certainly don’t think they were legitimate prophets. Heck, *they* did not think that about themselves, as a group. Indeed, they were constantly barbequing one another at the stake over different supposed breaches of orthodoxy. John Calvin burned Michael Servetus to death, for example. So was Calvin a true prophet, and Servetus a false prophet? Or the other way around? Both? Neither? Martin Luther burned Anabaptists to death. Was Martin Luther a false prophet? Were the Anabaptists? You really can’t say that both were legitimate prophets — legitimate prophets don’t murder one another in the name of orthodoxy! When each person says they have the divine authority to interpret doctrine for themselves, either they all agree, or nearly all of them is a liar and/or madman and/or fool.
Scripture, like all texts, has no meaning outside of an interpretation. Words are just symbols, symbols are polysemic, and they have to be interpreted to be meaningful. So to say that Scripture should be the standard — right there, you are implying a system in which *someone* makes a judgment about what something means by comparing it to their interpretation of some passage or passages of holy scripture. Heretics misuse scripture all the time. Heck, the first canon was assembled by the archheretic Marcion. The author of second Peter tells us that scripture is difficult to understand, and it should not be interpreted by the uneducated or the unstable. That’s the Bible’s warning label. It might as well say “Warning: Attempting to interpret without consulting educated scholars who have been found to be trustworthy is extremely dangerous for your soul.” Now, why would God leave us His Holy Scriptures and not also leave us a mechanism of recognizing who has been entrusted with the authority to judge the legitimate interpretation of Scripture? Thankfully, that is not what occured — in His infinite Wisdom, Our Lord appointed apostles who appointed bishops and established lines of succession, and these are unbroken all the way to today, and these bishops had uncontested authority in all Christian churches before the Protestant reformation.
So, in a nutshell, that’s why I call the reformers false prophets. It isn’t an attack on our separated brothers and sisters who are currently involved in Protestant sects–but it would be dishonest and meaningless ecumenically to say otherwise. And I’ll go further and say that many Catholic leaders have been false prophets as well. The Church is full of sinners, that’s kind of the point. It would be silly to put your trust in sinful men and their own idiosyncratic interpretations of scripture–that’s why God also gave us the blessing of the institution of the Church, precisely because men are sinful and imperfect and incapable of knowing and understanding God on their own. The protestant reformers thought that they had some mystical power that made them superior to everyone who came before them, that they could, on their own, outside of the Holy Church, interpret scripture accurately. Today, with 10,000 unique and conflicting Protestant denominations, I would think the folly of that approach would be pretty apparent.
Words have meaning,otherwise why use them. Luther was part of the Catholic Church, it was while studying scripture that he was struck by what he read! Why did the hierarchy of the Church resist his wanting to bring this to their attention? His life was a stake in going against their interpretation…it seems they responded like the Pharisees, more interested in their authority than the truth of God’s word. Calvin did not make up the doctrine of election…it too is clear in scripture,nothing mystical but clearly written. It does disturb me that, people killed each other over these differences, I am glad burning each other at the stake went by the wayside! Satan wants us to be at odds, I just want to know the truth of God’s word, as did the reformers. It is a spiritual battle, and will be ongoing until Jesus returns.
I didn’t say words don’t have meaning (who would say that? Would they use words to express that sentiment? Come on…). I said words can have more than one meaning, and that they are given meaning by the system of interpretation in which they are rendered meaningful.
Like every heretic that came before him, Luther disagreed with what those appointed by the apostles to be bishops taught. I’m not sure why you are characterizing Luther’s interactions with the Church as bringing something to their attention, as if his interlocutors were unfamiliar with scripture. Calvin didn’t make up the “doctrine of election.” He didn’t even make up the idea of “unconditional election,” if you aren’t being theologically precise — you can find the idea in the Catholic theologian Augustine. Calvin did, however, make up the doctrine of limited atonement. And Martin Luther disagreed with him about it vehemently — so surely at least one of them was a false prophet, right?
But this is all beside the point. These guys murdered people by burning them alive. If you think that’s what a true prophet does (especially to other supposedly true prophets), I’m afraid we will have to disagree fundamentally on what it means to be a Christian and to love your neighbor. If one can be that wrong about the core essence of Christianity, why should anyone trust your idiosyncratic interpretation of the Bible?
I was agreeing with you,that of course words have meaning,and can be misconstrued. My point is that just because the hierarchy were appointed to have final say on the interpretation of scripture, does not mean they get it correct all the time….Luther,being one of their own, sincerely believed he had a clear understanding of the message of the text. His life was in their hands because of this interpretation being different than theirs. I was not there, but from the story of the whole thing, I got the impression that Luther’s idea was not given study,in humble desire to seek the truth of God’s word. I understand this is where Protestants and Catholics differ, but, I have been studying scripture for a long time so I have learned something! I agree, Killing each other is the exact opposite of how Christ taught us to respond to each other! As you pointed out, the Catholic Church did the same things….and they would have killed Luther as well. Since you have had more formal training,have you maybe read Luther’s issues that he brought to his higher ups, and looked at these sections in the Bible for yourself? Again, I am not looking to create bad blood between fellow Christians, I just disagree that Luther was a false teacher and got somewhat defensive about my reformed theology.
Hi,
I am married to a catholic, and it has been no easy task, I’m a protestant, I go to a bible church, and I also go to Bible Study Fellowship, I have studied the bible for 14 yrs.
I’m like so many of you on here, I can not comprehend how they pick, and choose what scriptures they believe.
The bible clearly teaches in, Hebrew 1:1-3 His word was the final word that men dare not neglect,,,,,
Hebrew 2:1-3 If he was the son of God as he claimed, how could any of his words not be true, if we cannot trust on his every word, then which of his words do we trust.
My husband had never read the bible before he met me, they are not taught to read the bible for themselves.
It’s very sad, I can’t imagine going to church, and never have a bible to open, to read along with the pastor, and learn, my husband goes to Mass, and they do the same ritual every wk….I went with him in the beginning, and it was just so empty,,,and when I found out that they believe that the priest turns the wine to blood, and the bread to body, I couldn’t believe it, who could believe such a thing, so I said your a cannibal, and he’s a magician, That seems satanic to me,,,, that’s not why got wanted us to have communion, it’s in remembrance of him, it’s a time to examine our own life!!!!!!
They have been taught all of this stuff since they were little, I think after you hear something long enough you believe it, its brainwashing!,,,,I find that they make them feel guilty about everything, they can never live up to these demands, so he never feels good, it’s guilt driven.
The biggest problem I have there religion contradicts Gods word, and also religion killed Jesus, and when you have religion you have man made ways, and legalistic laws, you can’t please man, but you ant to please God, it is about the heart!!!!!
Sandra
Sandra, you are very articulate about this and I appreciate that. I too am a Protestant and have read the Bible in a Year for many years, as well as do Bible study through radio teachers . From what I understand, the Catholic Church does hold the Bible in high esteem as God’s Word reveled to us. If they believe that, then I would hope they see it as trustworthy! Maybe your husband would enjoy doing a daily routine with you of scripture reading ,following some suggestions of a teacher that you like…or a Max Lucado, or Chuck Swindol, Ravi Zacharius, so many choices! My husband and I currently read from Tabletalk, a monthly magazine published by Ligonier Ministries,editor is R.C.Sproul. it has several articles on the topic of the month, as well as readings with a lesson for each day of the month. Very deep stuff sometimes!Thanks for sharing. God bless you for being a seeker of God’s truth!
Sandra, If you attended mass every day, you would hear the entire Bible in a year. Interestingly, this would include all of the books that Martin Luther removed from the Bible (picking and choosing, as you say).
It does not sound to me like you approached your husband’s faith with a very open mind, or viewed the things you didn’t understand very charitably. For example, your comments about the Eucharist imply a basic misunderstanding of Catholic sacramental theology. The sacrifice of the mass is unbloody. The accidents of the bread and wine are unchanged, only the substance. So to call your husband a cannibal strikes me as rather uncharitable.
Furthermore, it is unreasonable to draw inferences about Catholics in general on the basis of the single case of your husband. That would be considered what informal logicians call a “hasty generalization.” Indeed, as a Catholic, I know my bible quite well, and have studied it in the original languages; have you?
It sounds to me like your problems with Catholic theology are perhaps a proxy for other issues. In any event, I wish you well and will include you in my prayers.
Well, we have very careful replies to all of Luther’s treatises, so his ideas were certainly considered. But you have to keep in mind that the Catholic Church does not change its doctrines. From the time of the apostles to today, no dogmatically defined doctrine–article of faith, if you will–has ever been overturned. Doctrine develops, of course, and we can see that basic fact in scripture itself, as Jesus’s earthly followers tried to come to terms with and understand what His life and death meant, and on through the histories, the various theological issues the Church considered about things like the Trinity or issues of Christology or the Sacraments or Easter — all of these are areas where doctrine developed. But doctrine does not change, because the Church is in essence the same today as it was when Christ founded it. Luther proposed abandoning doctrines. Note, the issue was not really justification by faith — the joint declaration on justification makes that clear, we aren’t really in essential disagreement on that issue. But on a great many matters, Luther had very strange, very novel doctrines that no one had every proposed before, like sola scriptura. He also eliminated several books of scripture that he didn’t like. He literally removed books from the Bible. This was not someone who wanted to debate an open theological issue. He was a false prophet bent on the destruction of the Christian Church as it existed. He wasn’t a church leader either — he wasn’t a bishop, he was an Augistinian monk who wanted to break his solemn vows of celibacy (as the saying goes, and not without some truth: all heresy begins between the legs).
But if you are Reformed, you must agree that Luther was a false prophet, since Luther fiercly condemned those who believed in limited atonement (which, as you must know, was a totally new doctrine invented by Calvin). Luther and Melancthon despised the Refomed Calvinist sects.
I was once Lutheran, but I converted to Catholicism nearly 15 years ago. I had studied the Book of Concord very closely before that time, and it was in my close study of Luther’s writings that I realized that Lutheran theology ultimately was not logically defensible. I have also been trained in Greek and Hebrew (though my Hebrew is pitiful to be honest) and have studied the scriptures in their pre-translated state. I agree that the Catholic Church has had terrible people in leadership positions throughout history. That’s why I don’t trust any one person’s idiosyncratic interpretation, but rather I trust in the *institutions* our Lord and His apostles left behind, which are greater than any individual (even a Pope), and certainly greater than anyone who would renounce and attempt to destroy our Lord’s sacred institutions. That strikes me as a special form of hubris that is unbecoming anyone who would shepherd God’s flock.
My parents were both Roman Catholic and as their marriage progressed, they felt a desire to seek another church which would help them have a deeper relationship with the Lord and after searching in many different places, they committed to Christian Life Fellowship, a born again church founded by missionary pastor Tom Hines. All of us children were raised as “born again” and were taught that Catholics did not have a personal relationship with Jesus and it was meaningless to make the sign of the cross and most prayers and the liturgy were just vain repetition. However, by God’s grace, Pastor Tom Hines had a dialogue with leaders of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (ICCEC), a convergence of three streams: Sacramental, Evangelical and Charismatic worship. In 1994, Christian Life Fellowship joined the ICCEC with the hope of rediscovering and re-attaching our fellowship to the Church’s historical roots. It has been an awesome transformation. CLF is now called Cathedral of the King and I feel that we have the best of both worlds: the fullness of liturgy which the Protestants lack and the relationship with Jesus, which the Protestants say the Roman Catholics lack. For myself, because I now understand why there are Seven Sacraments, why Catholics make the sign of the cross, why there is liturgy, why there are icons and so on and so forth. I wonder how I could have previously called Catholics as unbelievers when there is only “ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM”. Somewhere down the line, we have forgotten that to be a Christian is to be a “follower of Christ”. Each family has its own traditions and practices, every set of parents would have their own set of rules and regulations (or lack of) for the family to enjoy and thrive and grow. I met my husband through the CEC and we have 4 wonderful children, 3 of whom were born right inside the church because our Bishop encourages natural birth in our birthing clinic. Every church may have its own traditions and practices but it must always be in accordance with the TRUTH. For our church being under the umbrella of ICCEC, we believe that when we proclaim that there is only ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH, we are not merely talking about the Roman Catholic church, it is the entire BODY of CHRIST, the Church that believes that one day, “every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is LORD”. Let us set aside our differences and BE IN UNITY. When we look at one another, let us not allow “status or religion” to take over the fact that Jesus Christ suffered and died for every person, no matter what color, race, religion he or she is. For almost 20 years now, the Cathedral of the King has hosted the Restoration of the Church conference and the goal is to unify the Church. In the recent conference, our Patriarch Bp. Craig Bates has shared that “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of Christianity”.. In Israel, the ISIS does not ask if you are Protestant or Catholic.. they only ask one thing: “Are you a follower of Jesus Christ?” What is our answer? May it be that God’s love flow through us and unite us. Fellow brethren, let us not convince each other which church is better but let us be open to UNITY and not division amongst all of us Christians.
To my knowledge the word Catholic means universal, so this would mean a universal church ( not just here on earth ) and most protestants believe that in the book of revelation when it speaks about the great whore that this would be Rome. In the past the Roman empire was very evil, this doesn’t apply to today.We do not see the Roman Pope executing people because of faith or anything in this nature. Catholics are indeed Christians. True Christianity from Jesus Christ to Saint Peter who is the Rock ( the foundation the the Universal church ). Protestants do not understand Catholicism , nor do they agree with the Catholic ways for this they protest the Catholic Church and are not part of what is true Christianity. Adam and Eve sinned and their sin is upon us so thats why there is need for baptism to cleans us from original sin. Most protestants are not baptized and this is a very important process to enter in the Kingdom of God. The Eucharist this is not a symbol of Jesus Christ . It is Jesus Christ in the flesh as well as his spirit. When you receive him in good faith you are receiving him into your soul and he there works in you. Most protestants don’t understand this and it is clearly written in the bible. The bible can be misunderstood and this is why there is more than 30,000 Christian faiths.The one true Christian faith is Catholicism this is passed on from Jesus Christ to the apostles and is the one true faith leading to the Kingdom of God.
A true Christian is one who confesses with their mouth that Jesus Christ is LORD, and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead. A person can go through the motions of baptism as well as take part in communion, but if they don’t fit the description above, these rituals do not make them “born again”, as Jesus told Nicodemus , a person must be in order to to be saved. As the Bible states clearly, in more than one place, it is through faith we are saved, it is a gift from God not of works, so non can boast! Abraham believed, and his faith was counted to him as righteousness . I agree that taking communion and being baptized are holy and mysterious , and should be approached with reverence and humility….we do them out of obedience to Christ. You may claim that all Roman Catholics have been baptized, but I feel pretty sure that not 100% of them are true Christians, but “cultural” Christians. Don’t be so quick to think there are no true Christians in the Protestant camp. But these discussions are great!q
Perhaps a better way to understand this concept of praying to Mary would be to ask and answer the following questions. (1) Are there any examples or commandments in the Bible where a godly person asks a dead person to be an intercessor? I believe the anwser is no. (2) Why would anyone think that a dead person (even one in heaven) can hear a prayer from the living? If anyone has biblical examples to answer either of these questions, please post them. Otherwise, I would have to conclude praying to Mary or any patron saint is unscriptural.
No one who is with Christ is dead. Also, no one prays “to” Mary or other saints — they ask the saints to pray for them, like you would ask your friend or mother or pastor to pray for you. The only thing that distinguishes the ‘great cloud of witnesses’ that are with Christ and those others you would ask to pray for you is that you think the ones who are with Christ are dead. Or that the witnesses aren’t able to witness anything. That is what seems unscriptural to me.
Departed saints are dead to this life on earth. I find it a very strange practice to bypass Christ,to prefer to pray to/ask for prayer from another human being who has “died to us”, meaning no longer on earth. No where in scripture is communicating with departed people,taught as a way to pray. The OT Jews would have been “asking Moses, or Elijah” for intercession, if this were something effective. I still believe that the attributes of Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence belong only to God; only God can know the prayers of billions of people at the same time, and answer them. Curch leaders are presumptions to add this practice of praying to departed people. Scripture needs to support these practices….traditions.
Patti,
The body is mortal and can die, but the soul is immortal. Those in heaven are more alive than those of us still on earth (Mark 12:27). They see God face to face. Saintly intercession is a theme seen all throughout the Bible in the Old Testament, New Testament, and ministry of Jesus Christ. Paul tells us in Hebrews that we are surrounded by a cloud of “witnesses” (12:1) and Peter, James & John spent time with Jesus, Moses & Elijah during the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-14). We know from the book of Revelation that the saints intercede for those of us on earth and we know that Jewish families also interceded and prayed for the deceased. The Blessed Virgin Mary interceded at the wedding at Cana. The examples go on and on.
Now, wouldn’t you agree that it is unfair to claim that Catholics “prefer to pray to another human being” than pray to Jesus? I have met thousands upon thousands of Catholics in my life and I have never once met a person who said that they don’t pray to Jesus or prefer to ask for the saints for their intercession. That would be like me claiming because baptists kept a book of intercession in their lobby for people to write prayer requests in, that they must love asking each other for prayers more than they love praying to Jesus.
We are in agreement that people who have died here on earth , and are now in heaven, are alive! Eternally alive! No created being,according to scripture, is omniscient or omnipresent or omnipotent…only God Almighty! Not angels or demons or Satan either! Mary was in the flesh when she asked Jesus to resolve the lack of wine issue at the wedding…it was still His call! We have “a great cloud of witnesses,” but how does that translate to mean they can hear the billions of prayers continually being made? As created beings, we are not God. Yes, in the transfiguration of Christ, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him, as they are alive for eternity with Him…..but they do not have the the attributes of God. Truth matters, and I do appreciate these discussions that help us figure it out. Saints in the flesh certainly join in prayers for others, but not in the “omniscient” sense…but in the flesh. The book of Hebrews teaches us that Christ is our King Priest and Mediator between us and God the Father….He is at the right hand of God….He was born to suffer and die for our burden of sin…no one else did. He is God. At least that is how I understand Scripture.
I’m not sure what “dead to this life on earth” means — one is either dead or alive. But this logic is faulty anyway. Either (a) it is bypassing Christ to ask someone else to pray for you, whether they are “dead to this life on earth” or not, or (b) it is not bypassing Christ to ask someone else to pray for you. There is no scriptural basis whatsoever for distinguishing between the two, or for saying some kinds of requested prayers are “bypassing Christ” and others are not. And it doesn’t make any sense — you are praying to Christ, and you are also asking someone else to pray to Christ with you. If that is “bypassing Christ,” we greatly disagree on what the word “bypassing” means.
Either you think that the author of Hebrews was telling the truth about the “great cloud of witnesses” or you think that it was a lie. If it is true, then they can *witness* what we do. That doesn’t make them omniscient or omnipresent or omnipotent. It just means that the Bible means what it says. You either believe that or you don’t.
Yes, I do trust in the Bible as God’s word to us. I find it difficult to take you seriously when you say you don’t understand my use of the phrase “dead to this world.” Dead and buried, yes, dead….I know you know what I am saying. The OT spoke of death and dying and “the dead”, and even made it clear that it was a sin to try and contact “the dead.” God we can talk to, but do not try to contact the dead( humans who have left this life) you do know what I mean. God yes…people departed from this earth( have died), no! I have just commented earlier today, that the one verse about “the great cloud of witnesses” is not substantial enough to conclude that people on the other side of death(from life on earth) are omniscient and omnipresent like God is……I believe it presumes much about the capabilities of saints in heaven….we should not make stuff up! Speaking of the book of Hebrews, it does teach us plainly, that Jesus is our King-Priest and only mediator between us and God the Father. we should not add to this what is not in Scripture. Christ is our all in all. just saying. the Bible, OT and NT, teaches us that to God be the glory, always. It is not tradition to ask dead saints to intercede for us, or the Israelites would have been praying to Moses or Isaiah, or Elijah. Pray to God…and yes, to ask your church members ( alive in the flesh, who can hear you) to pray for you is different! I understand what you are saying, I just don’t agree with your viewpoint. I don’t expect you to agree with me either, I just hope you at least understand what I am saying! In love of coarse, as Christians seeking God’s truth, always.
“great cloud of witnesses” does not mean “omniscient and omnipresent like God is.”
“great cloud of witnesses” does mean that they are *witnesses* and that there are many of them.
Proscriptions against two-way communication with the dead are concerned with divination. And, incidentally, they are irrelevant to our purposes because those in Christ *are not dead* because they have inherited *eternal life.*
The fact that Jesus is our only mediator does not mean that we can’t ask others to pray with us, obviously, so logically, it cannot be used to mean we can’t ask those who are with Christ to pray with us. The only argument you have that is logically sensible is the argument about omniscience and omnipresence, and it falls apart if you accept that those with Christ are witnesses.
I understand where you are coming from — being socialized by Reformed theology is rough — but I truly believe that if you take Scripture seriously and work through the logical implications of each verse piece by piece, you cannot disdain other Christians from asking other Christians to pray with them. No one, incidentally, is saying you have to do this, so we aren’t judging you for not doing this, but you do seem to be judging us for engaging in a Christian practice that is 2000 years old.
To be honest, it is not clear what the term “a great cloud of witnesses” entails. If God is the only one to be omniscient, etc, then your argument about saints in heaven hearing our prayers falls apart…..again, how can they be doing what Almighty God does…hearing all prayers at once and doing everything Sovereign God does? there were false teachers in the Christian community within the first churches, so, being “around for a long time” does not make something correct. also, I have been very precise in agreeing with the practice of asking other believers to pray for and with me…I need prayers! I am , with respect not disdain, wanting to have these discussions. I do value all brothers and sisters in Christ!
With God, anything is possible. It seems reasonable to me that God might make it possible for those who are with Christ to hear prayer requests from loved ones and those who call out to them. In Revelation we have a very vivid image of saints in heavan and angels delivering prayers to God on behalf of the saints on earth. Since heaven is outside of time and space, time does not pass in heaven, and that is something that our human minds on earth cannot fully contemplate let alone understand. Therefore, I would hesitate before insisting upon restrictions that ‘must’ apply to those who are with Christ.
There have always been false prophets, but the Church has been remarkably effective at stamping out heresy. Those practices that have remained with us since the time of the apostles are time-tested and trustworthy, in my view.
Presbyterians tend to embrace a regulative view of worship, in which no form of worship is permitted unless it is specifically prescribed in scripture. Baptists, on the other hand, tend to embrace a normative view of worship, that any form of worship is permitted that isn’t specifically proscribed by scripture. I think the baptist view here is far more in line with Christian practice historically and theologically sound orthopraxy. Someone embracing a normative view of worship would say that asking the saints to pray with you is not an essential practice mandated in scripture, but since it is not specifically proscribed, is a legitimate practice. I think that view is the most appropriate way to approach issues like this.
Nothing is impossible with God! I am glad I have verses like that to remember after watching the evening news. Far be it from me to say I have the book of Revelations all figured out; however, the imagery of the golden bowls of incense being the prayers of God’s people is also in Psalm 141:2….”Let my prayer be counted as incense before you and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!” The OT does use poetic imagery to describe how true heartfelt worship is pleasing to God. The only thing about how to pray, I am certain about is how Jesus told His followers to pray….to our “Father,who is in heaven”. I am glad to know there are so many other people who love Christ (you and all the others on this blog.) we all need to pray for our nation, the atheists and anti Christian sentiments are getting louder and bolder. May God forgive us and heal our land!
Amen!
To get an “Amen!” Out of you John makes me “lol.” Good night!
When the Catholic Church started selling forgiveness in the form of indulgences it became apparent to Protestants Catholics no longer followed Jesus’s teaching.
When Catholics prayed to saints they were no longer following Jesus. Only God, through jesus can forgiveness be found. Prayers also don’t “change” gods mind so having a saint “advocate” for you makes no sense.
Prayers foster a relationship through God, allow other people to pray for you (it doesn’t do anything but keep the troubles of other people in your mind and heart) and in rare cases God uses the prayers as a mechanism of miracle.
Finally the Catholic Church has money. It is easier for camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
Catholics rejected the fundamental teaching of Jesus and adopted pagan beliefs, traditions, and superstitions.
That’s why Protestsnts regard Catholics as unchristian.
You are exactly right in a certain sense. The reason (some) Protestants don’t regard Catholics as Christians is that they don’t understand Catholicism. Your post demonstrates that you have very little understanding of the Catholic tradition–it sounds like most/all of what you think you know about Catholicism is something some non-Catholic told you. Indulgences don’t provide “forgiveness” and they never have, and it’s always been possible to obtain them without spending money. Catholics don’t pray *to* saints, we ask saints to pray with us and for us, just like we ask people at our church to pray with us and for us. Catholics pray directly to God, and we have a personal relationship with God.
Scripture tells us that the tides of hell will never overcome the Church. If Catholicism was truly unchristian, then there would have been no church for hundreds of years before Protestantism was invented. I trust scripture over your protestant teachings that men didn’t invent until 1500 years after Jesus founded His church.
We catholics don’t regard protestants as non-Christian, provided they adhere to the Nicene Creed (this criterion excludes Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and certain adventist denominations that reject the Trinity or embrace Nestorianism). That’s true even though we think most protestants believe some silly things that are justifed neither by Scripture nor Holy Tradition. Being Christian is not a matter of your denominational membership — and I’m saddened that you don’t seem to understand that.
Catholics do not believe the promise of Jesus and that promise is whoever trust in Him (Jesus) for the gift of eternal life receives eternal life. They Catholics teach a worked based way to receive eternal life and that is not what the Bible teaches. Their (Catholics) gospel is a man made gospel along with many other churches today, that teach and believe in a salvation given by meeting certain demands or by the preforming of certain works (baptism, obedience, turning from sin, confessing Christ, that salvation is from the church, that priest still receive divine revelation from God, etc… )
So they are basically trusting in some form of self salvation
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
John 6:27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life – the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him.”
John 6:28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?”
John 6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.”
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.
John 6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes in me has eternal life
John 20:30 Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
John 20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
“Catholics do not believe the promise of Jesus and that promise is whoever trust in Him (Jesus) for the gift of eternal life receives eternal life. ”
What? Yes, we do believe that. Where do you get this stuff? Are you not aware that the Catholic Church and the World Lutheran Federation signed a joint declaration on the doctrine of justification over 15 years ago?
The hatred in your heart for your fellow Christians has blinded you to the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. I strongly suggest you revisit your motives, and if you continue to be interested in what the Catholic Church teaches, seek out Catholic sources and ask them.
And you think “confessing Christ” is a *work* as opposed to an act of faith? And so you don’t think that confessing Christ as your Savior and Lord is necessary for salvation? You are doing your fellow Protestants a disservice by spoutting this heresy.
And you think “confessing Christ” is a *work* as opposed to an act of faith? And so you don’t think that confessing Christ as your Savior and Lord is necessary for salvation? You are doing your fellow Protestants a disservice by spoutting this heresy.
Take a study of John 12:42
42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
and John 19:38
38 After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus.
neither of these groups confessed Jesus as Christ but the scripture says they believed that Jesus is the Christ (the promised Messiah of the Old Testament) and no where in the Bible does it say that these secret believers were false believers.
If the Catholic church believes that receiving eternal life is by faith,belief,trust in Jesus, that he is the promised Messiah (prophesied in the Old Testament) and gives eternal life to all who trust in Him for eternal life.
why do i find this information (below) about baptism being necessary for salvation.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism
And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]” (CCC 1257).
The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6).
is this not a position of the Catholic church
And i do not hate anyone, but i do Love sharing the free gift of eternal life that is being offered by Jesus the Messiah. If anyone wants eternal life do as the Book of John teaches, the only book of the Bible whose stated purpose for being written is to tell people how to have life (eternal life)
John 20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Trust in The Christ for eternal life and not any action a person can do.
I really strongly urge you to read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification that I mentioned above. So much of the controversy over salvation by faith and the role of “works” boils down to linguistic misunderstanding, and has been worked out and resolved already.
Baptism takes many forms, one of which is Baptism by desire — that is, by a desire to repent and follow Jesus. The thief on the cross, for example, had no opportunity to be baptized in water, but surely that didn’t prevent his salvation. Why do we say baptism is important at all? Well, Jesus said “whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16). That’s all the Catholic church teaches. Do you subscribe to something different than what Jesus said in Mark? Why did Jesus emphasize the importance of baptism if it was not in fact important?
We believe that God uses material objects as instruments to convey grace. Examples of this abound in the New Testament. We believe that grace is the only way in which one can come to true faith. Baptism is the sacrament that symbolizes our rebirth in Jesus — and we believe it does more than just symbolize, but actually works to regenerate the soul. This is not merely through interaction with water, but in adopting the faith necessary to receive baptism. Baptism was very important to Jesus. In the great commission, the key mission is to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” The author of 1 Peter instructs his readers to “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Baptism is something that is done *for* the forgiveness of sins, and it conveys the *gift of the Holy Spirit*. We Catholics take these verses very seriously and believe them.
As for CCC1257 — if someone has had the gospel proclaimed to them, and they have the opportunity to be baptized, and they refuse, does it sound possible to you that that person has faith or that that person is saved? Baptism is an ordinance and sacrament that was commanded by the Lord; refusal is not the mark of the elect.
I don’t know why you quoted Martin Luther and then asked if that was the position of the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, the church would agree with Luther than baptism was instituted by God and that it would be blasphemy and a rejection of the Lord’s free offer of salvation to treat baptism like an indifferent thing.
Jesus is a person, the second person in the Trinity. You very much should put your trust in what that person can do. We all agree that only Christ saves; we don’t save ourselves through our actions. That is Pelagianism and it was condemned as heresy 1000 years before the schismatic Protestant sects were invented. It is Christ that acts in baptism, and it is Christ that leads us to desire God and brings us to faith in Him. The sacraments, particularly Baptism, were instituted by the Lord as means of conveying grace. Grace is an incredibly important thing, of which one can never have too much.
Again, I urge you to read the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification. There is no real conflict between the Catholic church and the protestant sects that adhere to Luther’s teachings on justification. I also urge you to seek brotherhood with your fellow Christians, instead of stirring up pointless divisions and disputing on trivialities.
*one minor typo — in editing my post I removed a couple posts and messed up a citation. What I attributed to 1 Peter was actually from Peter’s speech in the second chapter of Acts.
The word salvation and forgiveness of sin which is connected to baptism. After studying this in context, this is connected to the Jewish nation and their participation in having Jesus crucified. Baptism and repentance is used by God to show that a believer has separated from the Judaism that participated in the sin of the blasphemy of the holy spirit (the rejection of the offer of the kingdom by Jesus on the basis that He was demon possessed) which lead to the crucifixion Matthew 12. The use of evil generation in Acts 2:38,39,40
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this evil generation.”
this connects back to sin of the blasphemy of the holy spirit in Matthew 12
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
so this salvation is a physical salvation from Gods wrath that was to come in 70 A.D. The same is going on in the book of Hebrews that was addressed to Jewish believers that were thinking about going back to the Judaism they had left and if that was the case they would again be placing themselves under Gods coming judgment.
{I don’t know why you quoted Martin Luther and then asked if that was the position of the Catholic Church. }
that was taken from that catholic webpage the link shows the context. i am not using Luther to make a point they were using him on their post i just did not edit that part out. i saw no need to adjust what was being said there
Just as Paul confronted the false addition to a person receiving eternal life in Acts 15 by the judaizers
Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment
today believers should confront additions to Faith,belief,trust to properly teach the Gospel to people looking for eternal life.
a great resource for further study of this topic can be found at
http://www.faithalone.org/
very extensive studies of the Gospel and areas that have been misunderstood as additions to faith.
And what did you think of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification?
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
After reading this (Doctrine of Justification) i come away believing they they are mixed in their theology
in
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
Sounds like they are saying salvation is by faith, but the question is how is faith defined in this doctrine. i believe reading further into the doctrine they define faith as more that just believing the facts of the Bible and placing your trust in Jesus.
Take Billy Graham he defines faith as obedience as other Lordship salvation people do. And i am getting the same idea that this doctrine does to.
yet in 25 they say (By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation)
25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life.
yet they say this
26.In the doctrine of “justification by faith alone,” a distinction but not a separation is made between justification itself and the renewal of one’s way of life that necessarily follows from justification and without which faith does not exist.
from 26, i take they do not believe faith (receiving eternal life) occurs in a moment in time. but follows the renewing of one’s way of life
again (27) baptism is stated as playing a part of faith
27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Persons are justified through baptism as hearers of the word and believers in it.
28.We confess together that in baptism the Holy Spirit unites one with Christ, justifies, and truly renews the person. But the justified must all through life constantly look to God’s unconditional justifying grace.
with this statement did they once believe that salvation was attained by the Law in the Old Testament
33.Because the law as a way to salvation has been fulfilled and overcome through the gospel, Catholics can say that Christ is not a lawgiver in the manner of Moses. When Catholics emphasize that the righteous are bound to observe God’s commandments, they do not thereby deny that through Jesus Christ God has mercifully promised to his children the grace of eternal life.[18] [See Sources for section 4.5].
One question in the parable of the soils, who, which soil/soils are saved and received eternal life.
The Parable of the Sower
Luke 8:4-15
4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
The Parable of the Sower Explained
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
from reading this doctrine i just do not see it saying a person is given eternal life in a moment of time by the simple act of Faith,belief,trust in Jesus, by just simple believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Old Testament and trust in Him for the gift of eternal life.
if approached by a person walking down a sidewalk and ask, i want eternal life how do i receive eternal life.
what do you tell them. in few moments of time right there on the sidewalk, would that person be able to walk away knowing he now has eternal life.
Faith is more than just “believing the facts of the Bible” and placing trust in Jesus. A lot more. First of all, you’ve defined it as a knowledge question — believing that certain facts are true is another way of saying having a certain kind of knowledge. Gnosticism is the oldest heresy in the book (literally — John and Jude warn against the heresy of gnosticism) — the idea that knowledge saves you. It sounds like your idea of faith involves knoweldge as the principle element.
Faith is a lot bigger than that. Placing your trust in Jesus, yes, but also repenting from your sin and desiring to sin no more. It involves friendship with God. It involves seeing every human being as redeemable. Someone with faith *lives* that faith. Look at James chapter 2 for a discussion of what real faith looks like — what you’ve described sounds to me like dead faith.
Faith “occurs” throughout the life of the believer. The “once saved, always saved” heresy is perhaps the second oldest in the book. Paul explicitly condemns that way of thinking, and says even in all his struggles, he is still working out his salvation in fear and trembling. People can fall away. It isn’t a sign that they were “never saved in the first place” (although that *might* be true). We are always called to conversion. Conversion is a life-long thing. It entails sanctification. The person who says “oh, I attended an altar call 70 years ago so I’m covered, despite my overt rejection of God after the fact” is lying to themselves.
Faith begins with baptism, in many cases. I don’t understand your continued efforts to minimize the importance of baptism when Jesus insisted on it being of critical importance, stressing it at every point in His life. Why minimize what Jesus said was essential? Jesus told us to be baptized and to baptize. That should be enough for you.
The Law was never a way for salvation until it was fulfilled by Jesus. It was in Jesus’s fulfillment of the Law that He opened the way for salvation for us all.
I don’t understand your peculiar fascination/obsession with the moment in which you think you ‘earn’ your eternal life by having the special knowledge and making a verbal commitment. The person who insists on a “no takeback” contract with God is engaging in the worst form of legalism. You should work out your faith in fear and trembling your whole life, always cautious and on guard against the enemy, always hopeful in Christ. Put your trust in Christ, and not in the formulas and legalese of Calvinist theology. Seriously, your soul depends on it. In Christ
I think you completely missed the very important point d Taylor was trying to make. Certainly having a “head” knowledge of facts does not equal faith. But, clearly when the head knowledge of our being sinners standing before a holy God becomes a matter of the heart, that is when we bow the knee before God and repent and have that moment of saving faith known as CONVERSION….and it can happen in a moment! Some people may not remember the exact moment, but rather a process of searching to understand and question how and why of Biblical truths. So I disagree that what d Taylor described is even close to Gnosticism ( isn’t that the group that say anything involving the flesh is bad?) I firmly believe that getting baptized without the heartfelt faith in Christ and His sacrifice for us, is no more than a dunk in the pool…..faith is needed first. We are saved by our faith ( a matter of the heart, not just a knowledge of the facts) and of corse, we can backslide and fall away if we don’t seek to develope our relationship with God and read His word and learn His will for us. That is why we are told by Paul to put on the full armor of God to protect us from the attacks from the evil forces,that will be tempting us daily to stumble. Growth as believers, our sanctification is a process for as long as we live. You even acknowledged that yourself when you told of the thief on the cross..he was saved in a moment by his heartfelt belief, but died soon after only to be in Paradise! Yes, we obey our LORD and are baptized and take communion…not to be legalistic, but to be obedient. All the benefits we enjoy as a result of this obedience I don’t even fully understand or know.
Gnosticism encompasses a wide variety of strains. Some of them were ascetic, saying that all material was evil. Some of them said that we weren’t made in the image and likeness of God (or that we lost that image in the fall). Some of them were libertine. Often they were anti-procreation. But one thing they all had in common is that the conceived of the saving faith as knowledge– by knowing certain things or acknowledging certain truths, one was saved. That, to me, is the exact heresy that d taylor is promoting. Faith is more than knowledge — it is an attitude, an orientation, it is love, it is something that is put into action, it is somethign that we live. It isn’t something that happens in an instant; it is something we pursue our whole lives. Conversion is a lifelong pursuit. Of course, the initial moment of conversion can happen in a moment — St. Paul on the road to Damascus, for example — but as St. Paul himself said, he spent the rest of his life working out his salvation in fear and trembling, always cautious against falling away, always continually repenting of his sins and striving to endure to the end (to his eventual martyrdom in Rome).
Still, I agree with just about everything you wrote, except the idea that baptism without prior faith is meaningless. Entire households, including little children, were baptized by Paul, and we know from the apostolic fathers (the second generation of Christians who had directly been taught the faith from the apostles) that paedo-baptism was an ancient practice that the apostles themselves taught. Baptism marks the beginning of a covenant relation with God, a parallel to circumcision under the old covenant, and is an initiation into the life of the faith. It leaves a mark on your soul, and is a means of conveying grace (without which, there can be no faith). Even Martin Luther and John Calvin taught that it was important to baptize infants. I myself am a convert, so I wasnt baptized until I was much older. But I defer to the apostles and their students when it comes to matters of practicing the faith, and there is hardly a Christian practice more ancient than baptizing infants.
Again, faith is a matter of the heart, but the head knowledge of needing a savior comes first. As scripture say of Abraham, “he believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” You also acknowledged that faith/conversion can come in an instant, as d Taylor and I have also said. Also, we do not disagree, that as long as we are in this world, we are “working out” our salvation, which is the transforming of our minds by reading and learning God’s word (which is part of what the Holy Spirit helps us with) and knowing we are involved in a spiritual battle. All the ways we change and grow and serve, are the fruits of the Spirit that is working in us. do we agree? I agree, entire families were baptized. We just don’t know if the babies all grew up to have faith in Christ, but it is not wrong to do it, but is scriptural. Even the Catholic Church has a person be “confirmed” in their faith when old enough to confess it. I mentioned in another post, that in the Baptist Church I attend, we have “baby dedications” to the LORD, where the parents commit to bringing their child up learning about God, and the church will support them in this goal. But, no way do we say baptizing infants is wrong! And we have had entire families baptized, but the children were old enough to participate.
I think, more or less, we are on the same page. I think the Joint Declaration in many ways sets the grounds for ecumenical conversations– a lot of the divisions in Christianity I think come down to semantic issues or points of emphasis that were in dispute 500 years ago and have become blown out of proportion. I have family members that are Lutheran and others that are Methodist, and when I attend church services with them during visits, it doesn’t really feel foreign to me or like a different faith is being preached (though I must insist that it is tacky to project the lyrics of music on the wall).
There was a blog post on Patheos last year (‘Against Justification’) that framed this issue really well, in my opinion. This is the relevant part:
“Yes, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from the works of the law. Yes, salvation is by sheer grace of the All-Incarnate God who condescends and reaches down to the innermost of our fallenness and lifts us up.
But faith, true faith in Jesus Christ, the Man-God of the Cross, is not assent to a doctrine or agreement that historical facts occurred. True faith in Jesus Christ is a sword, one that slashes through our very being and crucifies the old self on the Cross of Love and issues in a new life through the Spirit, so that, indeed, “faith without works is dead”, indeed “faith without works” is no faith at all.
This, I believe, is the Gospel doctrine, the apostolic doctrine, the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Orthodox Church, and a doctrine that would be espoused by most Protestant denominations and preachers.
How can anything else stand in the way of this magnificent, terrible Cross of Jesus Christ, this Cross which destroys the old life and brings the joy that cometh in the morning? How can we miss that once we understand faith, understand it the way Paul met it–was crushed by it–on the road to Damascus, the way it rains down from his pen of fire, to say that we are “justified by faith alone” and we are “justified by faith and works” is the same thing?”
I do agree with you on all that you point out,except ai understood works to be the evidence of a person being a new creation in Christ. We do good works because we have been regenerated or born again…dying to self and living for Christ…and all those ways of describing being converted. We don’t instantly display these changes, even Paul had to retreat to Arabia for a while to grow in God’s truth and Spirit. So again, I understand works to be the result, or the fruit of spirit as we grow in our faith. And I know that I will never, in this life, be perfected….many times I think back over the day and see how I have not reacted in love, or made good use of an opportunity to reach out to someone, and on and on! The Holy Spirit convicts me at these times and that is how I know to ask for forgiveness And His help to make me better in doing good works! That includes the right attitudes and all those things.
Sure — but to say that works are the fruits of faith, or that they are acts of faith, is really to say the same thing in different ways. What does it mean to be faithful to a spouse? Is not having an affair the fruit of being faithful, or is it acting out one’s faithfulness, or is faithfulness itself the same thing as not having an affair? I would say all of the above, and also that it doesn’t really matter to parse out those semantic distinctions if you love your spouse. The same is true regarding faith in God, and in what constitutes being faithful to God and what constitutes being unfaithful (infidelities) to God. And since God’s love for us is unconditional, when we are unfaithful, He’s willing to accept us back again as soon as we are ready to do so, time and time again.
I agree. All I was trying to emphasize is that good works don’t save us…our heartfelt faith in Christ saves us. As you have pointed out before, knowing that Christ is the son of God won’t save us, as Satan knows who Christ is, but he is lost! The way we live our lives will demonstrate our faith….that is what I hope for myself, as God continues the good work He started in me!
To put it another way — Justification is the start of one’s spritual life. But you seem to think of it as the everything of spiritual life, the only important thing, the alpha and the omega. It’s important, no doubt. So is elementary school.
The Bible clearly states these facts
The Gospel of John is the only book in the Bible who states it purpose for being written, is to tell people how to have life (eternal life) John 20:31 makes this very clear statement.
John 20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
and in the only book of the Bible who says it was written to tell people how to have life,
Over 90 time you will find as the only condition to receive eternal life is to believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah and will give eternal life to anyone who will trust in Him for the gift of eternal life.
you will not find as a condition baptism, repentance, saying a prayer, confessing Christ, joining a church, turning from sins, promising to serve God, being sorry for your sins, inviting Jesus into your heart etc….
an unbeliever becomes a believer by trusting in Christ for eternal life
John 6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes in me has eternal life.
after that person becomes a believer he/she begins their life of discipleship and their growth in the christian life, not to receive eternal life, that happened when they trusted in Christ and can not be lost, ever.
Then they will, till they leave this earth either grow in their discipleship or as some not grow and even some backslide or even fall away from the faith as stated in The Parable of the sower Luke 8:4-15
Luke 8:13 states this
Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
the faith used to receive eternal life is the everyday faith a person uses to believe any thing they place their trust into. what is special about the faith used in receiving eternal life is the object (of a person’s faith) and that very special object is Jesus the Messiah and his promise of eternal life.
So as i live out my life not i am not worried about my eternal life i have been given and received that by trusting in The Christ
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
i am now trying to grow in my discipleship area of my life and i do that by being baptized, studying the Bible, confessing my sins, repenting of sins or if as in the case of the prodigal son fall away repent and return back to God and the faith. and many others areas to grow in discipleship service, obedience, calling on the Name of the Lord, prayer etc…
So i do not mix the life of discipleship and its works with. receiving the gift of eternal life which is by trust,faith,belief and contains no human contributions.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
and i am not a calvinist or a gnostic and in no way hold to any of those beliefs or any kind of labeled denomination
read the Gospel of John again and again till you can see the message taught there.
When I read you write things like faith is just an everyday thing, like any old faith you would have in anything, I get concerned. I mean, you just quoted from Luke about those to whom faith was just an ordinary everyday thing, with no roots. Faith in God is life-shattering, all encompassing, and an everlasting call to conversion and love. To see it as anything else is, I fear, to not have it. I’ll pray for you.
faith is not a gift, eternal life is the gift of God.
.i tried to post two links here with my reply but seems like my post would not be allowed so i resubmitted with out the two links. to bad, really fine write up about the gift of God being Eternal life and not faith
the faith, a child uses to believe in santa claus is the same faith, that the child will use to trust in Christ for eternal life. the difference is in the object.
The child is not given by God a special kind of faith to trust in Christ. That is why all people can if they trust in Christ, have eternal life. But as we know from the Bible many will never trust in Christ for eternal life and so will spend eternity in the lake of fire
the faith used to believe there is a santa claus is based on a lie taught by the child’s parents or adults surrounding the child.
where as the faith used to receive eternal life is based on truth the truth promised by God that whoever trust in Christ will be given the gift of eternal life.
but still every human has the ability to trust
As for Luke 8:13 no where in the text of the Bible do you find that the faith in Luke 8:13 was a false/worthless faith and that those believers did not receive eternal life. Those believers in Luke 8:13 are in heaven today.
the only soil who did not receive eternal life is the first soil why because they did not believe. satan some how prevented their belief from happening
Luke 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
all but the first soil in the parable are believers who received eternal life.
and a short writeup below about what is the gift of God faith or eternal life.
The Bible explains itself. We do not need to depend only on Ephesians 2:8 in order to find out what the gift of God is. There are many other New Testament passages which clearly tell us what the gift of God is. How is the expression “gift of God” used elsewhere in the New Testament by Paul and the other writers?
A study of the places where the word “gift” is used in the New Testament reveals the following:
δäρον (gift, present) neuter noun
This word is used to refer to the “gift of God” only once, and that is in the passage under consideration (Ephesians 2:8). However there are other related Greek words that are translated “gift” and these are as follows:
δωρεά (gift) feminine noun
John 4:10–the gift of God is everlasting life (compare verse 14).
Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17–the gift of God is the Holy Spirit.
Romans 5:15,17–these verses speak of the gift of justification (righteousness) and life (compare verses 18,21).
2 Corinthians 9:15–this verse speaks of God’s unspeakable gift which is Jesus Christ.
We should note that this word is never used of FAITH.
δώρημα (gift, present) neuter noun
This word is never used of FAITH but it is used of God’s gift of salvation or justification (see Romans 5:16).
χάρισμα (a gift freely and graciously given) neuter noun
Romans 6:23–the gift of God is eternal life (compare Romans 5:15-16).
This word is never used of Faith (except in 1 Corinthians 12:9 which is speaking of the temporary gift of miracle working faith and not saving faith).
Thus, in no other place in the New Testament does the word “Gift” ever refer to saving faith. However, we recognize that apart from God’s mercy and gracious enabling and enlightenment, saving faith could not be exercised (John 6:44,65; Romans 9:16; Matthew 11:27; 16:16-17; Acts 16:14; etc.).
We have seen therefore that there are many passages in the New Testament which speak of Salvation (or justification or eternal life) as being the gift of God, especially in Paul’s writings. In light of this, it would be much safer to identify “the gift of God” in Ephesians 2:8 with Salvation unless there were some very obvious reasons for doing otherwise. If Ephesians 2:8 speaks of faith as being the gift of God, then this is the only place in the New Testament where Paul makes such an identification.
Since the pronoun is in the neuter gender (not agreeing with the feminine gender of the word “faith”), since Paul is talking about how a person is saved (salvation is clearly the matter being discussed) and since the New Testament elsewhere refers to salvation as the gift of God, we have good reason for concluding that salvation is the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8.
You seem to be taken in by the ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ heresy. I’ve already shown howith it was condemed by Paul. I urge you to listen and recant. Surely scripture will persuade you? You have badly mangled this parable.
Work Out Your Salvation by Perry Brown
I have sometimes heard Christians go into interpretative gymnastics when confronted with the command in Phil 2:12 to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” The explanation I remember hearing most is that “we can only work out a salvation that God has already worked in.” In other words, Paul was telling the Philippians to simply “conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ” (Phil 1:27). Since they had been saved by God in Christ Jesus, they should act like it and bear spiritual fruit.
However, this approach assumes that Paul is talking about eternal salvation in 2:12. In fact, the word salvation can refer to deliverance from things other than eternal condemnation. Paul says in 1:19 that “this shall turn out for my deliverance” (NKJV). The same Greek word for salvation (used in 2:12) is used for deliverance here, and by looking at the context in 1:12-17 we learn that Paul was expecting to be delivered from his imprisonment in Rome for the Gospel. Physical deliverance was what he meant in 1:19.
In the same manner, Paul used the word for salvation again in 1:28, but this time he was talking about salvation for the Philippians. Salvation from what? In 1:27-28 he talked about the Philippians’ unity of spirit and purpose in “striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents.” Their unity was a sign of destruction for their opponents, and it was a sign of deliverance, “salvation,” from their opponents. Those enemies of the faith could not prevail against the believers’ unified front. Again, the salvation was physical and temporal, not spiritual and eternal.
So twice in Philippians Paul has used the word salvation referring to something other than eternal salvation, before he commands that they “work out [their] salvation” in 2:12. Could he be referring to some kind of physical, temporal salvation in 2:12 also?
When you trace Paul’s line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians’ temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. Follow Paul’s thoughts:
1:27 Paul calls for the Philippians’ unity in the faith.
1:28-30 That unity was needed because they were under attack for the faith, just as Paul was.
2:1-4 Paul again pleads for unity, and he says that it comes through selflessness and humility among the believers.
2:5-11 The believer’s model for humility under fire is none other than the Lord Jesus Himself. Jesus obeyed His Father, and the Father exalted Him when He humbled Himself.
2:12-13 Picking up his exhortation from v 4, Paul now says that just as the Philippians had always obeyed, now they must also obey again “with fear and trembling,” a probable reference to the humility and submission that Christ exemplified. As God delivers them from their opponents while they stand together in humility toward one another, they can be assured that it is God working His will in them.
2:14-18 This unity will prove them to be “blameless and innocent” in a corrupted world where they shine as “lights” for the Gospel. That kind of faithfulness under fire will make Paul rejoice when they all stand before the Lord-and even now while he is in prison.
When considered in its context, Phil 2:12 is transformed from an awkward interpretative problem into a wise and sobering challenge. We cannot oppose one another as believers if we expect to oppose the attacks of the world against our common faith. And humility toward our brothers and sisters in the faith is the key to our unity. If we do not kneel to serve one another, we will have a difficult time standing before the world.
So in Phil 2:12 we do not have a call to work to gain eternal salvation. We have instead a call to a victorious deliverance from spiritual defeat in our sufferings.
First you talk about “interpretive gymnastics,” and then right away you go into “Paul didn’t really mean eternal salvation when he said salvation.” You are kidding yourself. The context is clear. But let’s step back for a second and assume that it isn’t. People who say that it is impossible to fall away will say that if someone appears to fall away, they were never saved in the first place. But they certainly thought they were saved in the first place. So whether or not you can “lose” your salvation, from a practical standpoint it is somewhat irrelevent, since you have no idea whether you are someone who thinks you are saved but were never really saved, and who will ‘fall away’ in the future, or if you are saved but potentially could fall away.
Thus, there is no point in insisting upon your heresy, and I urge you, again, to yield to the clear, plain truth of scripture.
I have thought about this “once saved” discussion, and I see the parable of the seed sower clearly telling us that if your faith is firmly planted in the good soil, you are truly saved, period. This conclusion is backed up by several sections of scripture. Jesus said,”My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30. Jesus is our High Priest, our advocate and intercedes for us to keep us persevering in our faith, protect us from the evil one. John 17:1-26 God justifies us because we believed(faith, even though God did prepare our hearts to hear and accept His truth, we are still held accountable for our decision) and as we live our lives as followers of Christ, we are being sanctified. Thus,saved in the instant and given the righteousness of Christ, but sanctified in the perseverance of our faith and spiritual growth. Only God knows the true state of a Person’s heart;therefore only God knows if their faith is on the hard soil by the side of the road, the rocks or the fertile soil. That is why we can be surprised when we hear of people declaring that they no longer follow Christ…we could not really know their true spiritual condition. We should continue to pray for other people, since we can’t really know who God will choose to save. According to scripture, the only sin that won’t be pardoned, is blasphemy against The Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:30-32. Jesus said this after the Pharisees said His healing of the demon oppressed man, was accomplished through Beelzebul.
Philippians1:1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:
The Book of Philippians is written to believers
oh well i tried to correctly instruct you in how the Bible teaches that a person receives eternal life. if not you maybe someone will learn from this discussion that eternal life is given when a person believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Old Testament and gives eternal life to all who will trust in Him for eternal life.
The Gospel of John states this truth again and again
1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.
4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you had known the gift of God and who it is who said to you, ‘Give me some water to drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
4:14 But whoever drinks some of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”
4:39 Now many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the report of the woman who testified, “He told me everything I ever did.”
4:41 and because of his word many more believed.
4:42 They said to the woman, “No longer do we believe because of your words, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this one really is the Savior of the world.”
4:53 Then the father realized that it was the very time Jesus had said to him, “Your son will live,” and he himself believed along with his entire household.
5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
5:38 nor do you have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the one whom he sent.
5:39 You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me,
5:40 but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.
6:27 Do not work for the food that disappears, but for the food that remains to eternal life – the food which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has put his seal of approval on him.”
6:28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?”
6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.”
6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. The one who comes to me will never go hungry, and the one who believes in me will never be thirsty.
6:40 For this is the will of my Father – for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes in me has eternal life.
6:50 This is the bread that has come down from heaven, so that a person may eat from it and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
7:38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘From within him will flow rivers of living water.’”
11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies,
11:26 and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
11:27 She replied, “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God who comes into the world.”
20:30 Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
20:31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 3:11 I tell you the solemn truth, we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony.
“Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” 1 Corinthians 9:24-27
What do you think “disqualified” means? Return to the Christian faith, I again urge you.
John, believers in Christ are “running the race” in Christ….He who began a good work in us will finish that work, according to scripture. we HAVE been justified, and we are BEING sanctified until we die!
But then why is he afraid of being “disqualified”? What do you think he means by that? Surely some people fall away. You can say that they didn’t have real faith to begin with — and, to be fair, you might be right — but they thought they did. So the whole discussion seems a bit overly metaphysical. And I think the more the ‘once saved always saved’ mentality one has — that is, the more one focuses on that as a doctrine — the less secure, ironically, one feels in their faith, because they more they have to wonder if their faith is real. One of the most famous studies in sociology is called ‘The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism,’ by Max Weber. He found that Calvinists are often uncertain that they are members of the elect, and so, in extreme irony, they often work harder so as to convince themselves that they were elect. It’s a fascinating study, truly.
Now, let’s turn back to scripture. If you will be kind enough to indulge me, I want to put my classicist hat on and talk a bit about the Greek. The quote above is from the end of the ninth chapter of 1 Corinthians. The word Paul uses that is translated “disqualified” is αδοκιμος, which means unapproved, disqualified, unvictorious. That alpha at the beginning of the word is a privative alpha, which is similar to the prefix in the English words amoral, atypical, etc. The word δοκιμος, without that alpha, means approved, confirmed as genuine, and welcomed (its related to the verb δέχομαι, which means to welcome). How else are these words used by Paul and other inspired authors? In Matthew 10, Jesus uses it to mean the people who receive Him and are received by Him. A side note here about δέχομαι — Greek has an active voice and a passive voice like English, but also a middle voice, and this verb is in the middle voice. It contains a sense of both receiving and being received by at the same time. Similarly, it appears in 1 Thessalonians 2:13 when Paul is talking about those who receive and share in salvation. In 1 Corinthians 11:19, the word δοκιμος is used to talk about the authentic Christians, who are intermingled with the inauthentic ones — the divisions in Corinth provide a way of separating the two. In James 1:12, the word δοκιμος is used to refer to those who receive the Crown of Life. In 2 Timothy 2:15, δοκιμος is used to refer to those who are acceptable to God.
A really key verse that helps to put αδοκιμος in context is 2 Corinthians 13:5: “Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless, of course, you fail the test.” That’s what αδοκιμος means — someone whom Jesus Christ is not within, who is unacceptable, who fails the test. And indeed, Paul says you need to examine yourself to see if you are living the faith. Faith saves — faith and faith alone — but faith is something you live, and must continue to live, or else you will be αδοκιμος. In 2 Timothy chapter 3, the author discusses those in the last days who “make a pretense of religion but deny its power.” Verse 8 tells us about these people: “Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so they also oppose the truth—people of depraved mind, unqualified in the faith.” What word is used to characterize these people? You guessed it, αδοκιμοι (the plural of αδοκιμος). Again, in the first chapter of Titus, we hear about those who “claim to know God, but by their deeds they deny him. They are vile and disobedient and unqualified for any good deed.” And again, what’s the word for these people? αδοκιμοι.
Let’s look at Hebrews 6:4-8 — “For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. Ground that has absorbed the rain falling upon it repeatedly and brings forth crops useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected; it will soon be cursed and finally burned.” A few points about this passage. First, one cannot ‘fall away’ if one was never saved in the first place, or else what would they be falling from? And particularly we are talking about those who have “been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come.” That’s what happens when you accept the Lord. Now here, we aren’t talking about ordinary falling away, but the gravest sort — apostasy. And it isn’t that they wouldn’t be forgiven if they repented again, but that they cannot be brought to repentence again. All of that is very interesting for this topic, but the most important for our present purposes is the word that is translated as “rejected” — that is, the ground that will soon be cursesd and finally burned. Any guesses? αδοκιμος, yet again.
Now, I’m not sure your level of proficiency with Greek, which is why I’m going through all this. If there were any ambiguity in the English translations we have of 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, it doesn’t exist in the Greek. Paul fears the possibility that after a lifetime of preaching, he might be found αδοκιμος. We know what that means. Paul, as a teacher, an apostle, feels that he has a great responsibility to those he brought to the faith, and that if he fails them at the end (which also could mean recanting his beliefs under threat of martyrdom), he is failing in his own faith and will be damned. So, considering ‘once saved, always saved,’ — if Paul himself isn’t 100% sure if he might end up αδοκιμος, it suggests one should never be too overconfident.
But just to be sure we are understanding the context right, let’s read on and see what topic Paul turns to next, at the beginning of chapter 10. We hear about all of these people that “drank from… Christ” (by the way, if you were ever wondering what Paul was talking about regarding the rock that followed the Jews in the desert, it is a reference to the Book of Wisdom, chapter 11, a book which was in the Septuagint, which was the old testament canon Paul used and cited — the Book of Wisdom was one of the books that Martin Luther and his ilk, in their infinite ‘wisdom,’ thought should be removed from the Bible. But that’s another topic for another day…). They drank from Christ, but then they desired evil things, they became idolators, they indulged immorality, they tested Christ, they grumbled. They were punished. Why did these things happen, according to Paul? To provide us an example. If the saved cannot fall away, we would need no such example, unless we weren’t saved to begin with (in which case such example would be of no help). What’s the final conclusion, according to Paul? “Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall. No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:12-13).
So, for anyone who would insist upon the heresy of “once saved, always saved” — I can only echo Paul’s words: Take card not to fall. You will be tried. God is faithful, God will give you the ability to triumph, but if you reject that assistance, woe to you. God does not coerce people against their will. That is why it is *you* who must take care not to fall. I’m doing my best to teach here, and to correct ane rebuke boldly (2 Timothy 4:2). I think there are many issues on which believers can agree to disagree (e.g., on the question of whether those who are alive with Christ in heaven can observe their loved ones on earth, which we’ve discussed extensively in the past). But there are some issues that are cardinal beliefs that are core to the faith. The Trinity is one. Christ’s two natures, fully human and fully divine, is another. His united personhood / the inseparability of those natures is another (the heresy of Nestorianism, which denies that Mary bore God in her womb, which I occasionally hear from some Calvinists, very regretfully). Salvation by faith through grace is another. And the real possibility of falling away — the need for faith to be ongoing and active, the importance of the continual call to conversion, the inseparability of justification and sanctification — this is a cardinal element of the faith. The doctrine of ‘once saved, always saved’ entails the sin of presumption, which leads people to believe that they can be pardoned for sins that they are unwilling to repent, nothwithstanding all efforts by the Holy Spirit to convict them. This is really important. I truly believe that a misunderstanding on this point is gravely dangerous. Paul’s inspired warning to us is there for a reason.
Now, none of this is to say that we can’t feel confident about our relationship with God as it currently stands. We know if we are faithful; the Holy Spirit, as I said, convicts us of our sins. We know if we need to repent, and when we do, we can be confident that the Lord forgives us utterly and completely. And, moreover, we can be confident that we will never be tried beyond our ability to withstand, provided we adhere to the Lord and embrace and cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Paul is very careful to couple his warning with a message of reassurance. But the warning is still there: “Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.” The word for fall here is πεση, related to the word from the verse in Hebrews I discussed earlier, Hebrews 6:6, παραπεσοντας (παρα – πεσ – οντας –para means away, and that ending, ontas, makes it a participle, so we get ‘falling away’ as a reasonable English rendering). So, there is this connection between falling away, apostasy, and being rejected by God, αδοκιμος, in both Hebrews 6 and 1 Corinthians 9-10.
In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul is using the metaphor of the Greek gymnasia, with which his immediate audience was familiar. Paul is running in order to win an ‘imperishable crown,’ a metaphor for salvation that compares it to the literal crowns won by those victorious in the Isthmian games. He hasn’t already won the crown, and, indeed, he continues to run — not aimlessly, nor as if he were “shadowboxing,” he says — “No, I drive [υπωπιαζω — literally it means to punch someone under the eye, but the sense is to bruise, to utterly exhaust, or to discipline harshly] my body and train [δουλαγωγω — literally, to enslave] it, for fear that [μήπως], after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” αδοκιμος.
The negative conjunction used to express Paul’s fear is μήπως. The word appears in Galatians 4:11 to describe Paul’s fear that he has “labored for you in vain,” because these people that he converted, that had come to know God and be known by God, were back to their Judaizing ways. He uses that word again in Romans 11. Here, we again have a metaphor of a growing tree. Sometimes, a branch on the tree can break off. Why? Unbelief. What does Paul say specifically? “For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Romans 11:21-22). These people Paul is addressing are saved at the moment — he says “you are there because of faith” in verse 20. But, nevertheless, God might not spare them. God is overwhelmingly, unimaginably kind to those who cooperate with the Holy Spirit and remain in the faith — as Paul says, “provided you remain in his kindness” — but God is also severe, and those who fail to remain in His kindness “will be cut off.”
I could continue with this all day — as a Catholic, I find great strength and edification from reading scripture in their original languages, because you can really get clarity in a way that doesn’t fully shine through in even the best of translations (almost as if one is looking into a mirror darkly). I challenge you to read these passages, and my advice is to try to forget everything you think you know about theology, and just read the passage and see what the plain meaning is. You can go into interpretative contortions and pile on explanation over tortured explanation, but please first just read the passage and let God speak to you. It should be overwhelmingly obvious that we should be vigilant against the possibility of falling away, and that we should trust in God always to shepherd us through the challenges we will face. We should not be overconfident and insist that there is no way to fall away — no matter how strong our faith and how deep the roots. To be smugly overconfident is to reject the grace of God. I truly believe this is a matter on which one’s very status as a Christian rests. But even if you don’t agree with me on that point, I truly hope and pray you will agree with me that ‘once saved, always saved’ is a false doctrine uttered by false prophets. I would run, not walk, from any church in which I heard the doctrine preached. Please, look at these verses, and if anything I’ve said about the Greek is unclear or if you have any questions, I would be more than happy to help clarify. I am praying for you and for all who read this to remain firm in the faith and avoid the sin of presumption. May the Lord bless and keep you, make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you, lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.
You sound like a Christian to me! This is a debate between believers. Did you see my comment on “once saved”? I think it backs up your position.
here i will try to explain:
first a person either believes in Christ for eternal life
John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
if they do not believe they remain an unbeliever and remain separated from God and will die in their sins.
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
but their sins are not what causes them to be separated from God. their rejecting of Gods gift of eternal life by not believing in Christ because Christ died for the sins of the world
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
after a person dies, Is not when a judgment is made whether they go to heaven or hell, that has been decided while they were living. after death the person is either in heaven or hades (hell center of earth place of the dead) and waiting on judgment day both for the believer and the unbeliever
the believers judgment is the Judgment Seat of Christ. where their works on earth are examined to see which passes for the believer to receive rewards, not to see if they go to heaven
1 Corinthians 3:13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
the unbelievers judgment is the Great white throne judgment not to see if they will go to heaven but to judge their level of life in the lake of fire.
The Great White Throne Judgment
Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
notice there is no mention of sins being judged why because John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
sin was taken care of on the cross. so why are the dead condemned at the The Great White Throne Judgment because their names are not written in the book of life. why are their names not in the book of life because they did not receive the gift of eternal life (Christs life) by trusting in Christ for the gift of His life and failed to be included in the book.
the moment a person believes in Christ they are placed in the book of life.
John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
In 1 Corinthians 9:24- 27
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
it clearly says in 25 Paul says he is striving for an imperishable crown not eternal life
the crown is rewards not trying to go to heaven he is one of the few (maybe 3) who while still was allowed a view of Heaven while still alive.
You say: “it clearly says in 25 Paul says he is striving for an imperishable crown not eternal life
the crown is rewards not trying to go to heaven he is one of the few (maybe 3) who while still was allowed a view of Heaven while still alive.”
That, to me, isn’t a coherent thought. I have no idea what you are trying to say. If you are saying that you don’t understand that “imperishable crown” is a metaphor for eternal life, then I’m not sure I understand why you don’t understand that. I made a pretty extensive argument based on the Greek that goes far beyond this text to put it into context. A single muddled run-on sentence does not a rejoinder make.
I suspect the wider audience will benefit from my exegesis, but I am still concerned for your spiritual well-being, and I urge you to go back grab your Bible, check the Greek if you are trained in it (and if you aren’t, why not? Do you not want to read the holy bible in its original form? It’s the Word of God…), and work your way through my post. As I said, I’m happy to answer questions to help further your instruction.
{That, to me, isn’t a coherent thought. I have no idea what you are trying to say. }
i will try again it was late and not being a writer, does not take much for me to mess up the writing out of a thought.
No where does Paul state he is ever working to gain eternal life. in Romans he writes
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
why can a person believe this, he (Paul) was one of three people given a view of heaven while still alive on this earth.
and
God would never give a revelation like that, to a person who was not written in the book of life and assured of their salvation or give the responsibly of writing a good portion of the New Testament.
Paul was assured of his eternal life the moment he received the Gospel from The Messiah on the road to Damascus and believed it there.
In addition, in his letters to churches Paul called himself an apostle of Jesus Christ (cf. Rom 1:1; 1 Cor 1:1; 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; etc.). Surely he knew that there were no unsaved apostles (cf. 1 Cor 12:1-31, esp. v 28)! Equally certain is that he wouldn’t have called himself an apostle if he had any doubt about whether he was saved or not!
Any view that requires the conclusion that Paul was uncertain of his salvation should be rejected on that basis alone.
One can be assured of their salvation at the present, but God does not rape you. If you later choose to reject Him, He honors that request. You also can be assured that God will give you the grace you need to overcome any challenge or test thrown your way, but it is on you to cooperate with that grace. Again, God is not a rapist.
I showed that Paul said he was afraid of being αδοκιμος — all the more compelling given that he was, as you say, shown heaven. I showed you scripture after scripture of what αδοκιμος means, and its inverse, δοκιμος. We hear warning after warning after warning about falling away. I showed you many of those warnings. 1 Corinthians 9-10, we move from Paul’s fear of becoming αδοκιμος to his warnings against overconfidence. Romans 11:22 is crystal clear: “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. ”
What does it mean to you to “remain in his kindness” ? If you aren’t already in His kindness, you can’t remain in it. If you are already in His kindness, then what do you think it means to be cut off?
In Hebrews 6:4-5 — we hear about “those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift[b] and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come” — that is, saved people — who can “fall away.” How does that square with your Calvinist theory? I analyzed the Greek in this passage above. If you are interpreting the passage in some strange way, I’d like to see how your interpretation fits with the Greek.
Patti i have read your post if you were speaking to me.
one book recommendation, on your post that mentioned the blasphemy of the holy spirit.
Buy or borrow Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s book Footsteps of the Messiah. that book has the best explanation of the sin of the blasphemy of the holy spirit. below is a short thought on this subject the book Footsteps of the Messiah goes into greater detail.
Pharisaic theology held that only Messiah would be able to cast out a dumb demon, heal a Jewish leper, and restore sight to a man born blind, all of which Yeshua performed in the course of His ministry. In Matthew 12, Yeshua cast out a dumb demon, causing the crowd of onlookers to exclaim, Is this not the Son of David (meaning, Messiah) (vv. 22-23)? The Pharisees responded, He does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons (v. 24). With that pronouncement, contradicting even their own theology, the religious leadership of Israel rejected the messiahship of Yeshua on the grounds of His being possessed by the Devil. By extension, so did the nation. Not every Israelite rejected His messiahship. He did have followers; but as a national unit Israel adjudged that He was not Messiah. In context, then, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was the national sin that Israel committed in rejecting the messiahship of Yeshua by attributing the work of the Spirit through Him to the work of the Devil.
What about the phrase, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come (v. 32)?
The Hebrew that Yeshua used for world to come was olam haba, which is the rabbinic phrase for the Messianic (Millennial) Kingdom, a phrase that this author heard often as a boy from the lips of rabbis. This meaning is also brought out by Strong’s Concordance. Strong shows that the Greek word for world is aion, which is properly an age… specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future).
The unforgiveness that Yeshua spoke about had nothing to do with eternal unforgiveness, but of unforgiveness in regards to the Messianic Kingdom. Because of the nation’s blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom would not be established at that time (in this age), nor would they be alive to see it in the age to come;” but instead, declared Yeshua, 38. Behold, your house is left to you desolate. 39. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matthew 23:38-39). Their house (temple) was to be destroyed (70 A.D.), and the nation would not see Him again until they receive Him as Messiah, at which time He will return and establish His kingdom.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was the national sin of Israel attributed and attributable only to that generation (Matthew 23:36), and it is not a sin attributable to individuals. An unbeliever named Saul of Tarsus was part of the nation at that time, and yet, the Lord forgave and saved him (Acts 9:4-6). As blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a national sin and not attributable to individuals, it is impossible for an individual to lose his salvation by committing it: He cannot commit it.
Thanks for your input,d Taylor. Just one point I wish to clarify: A true believer in Christ would be indwelt by the Holy Spirit; thus not likely to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Being saved does not mean I don’t sin….and it grieves me when I am convicted by the Spirit because of sin. So, as Paul said, I will persevere in that race, with my eye on the prize of hearing God say, “well done faithful serpent.” It helps to remember that Peter vowed to stand by Christ ,no matter what…and soon after denied him three times. Even so, he did not loose his salvation, and still lead in the founding of the Christian church. I have a pretty easy life in that I don’t have to worry about being tortured and killed for my faith. I can only pray God would give me His strength if I should ever be persecuted like that, I don’t want to deny Him, but I have not been tested like that!
First of all, Peter subsequently repented, which is what one needs to do after committing grave sin and being convicted by the Holy Spirit. But second, you are talking about events that happened prior to the crucifixion and resurrection, so there was not yet salvation to lose, unless you are adopting some novel theory of atonement…
In any event, what about my series of arguments is failing to persuade you? The scriptures seem very compelling — there are dozens more, e.g., in the first chapter of 1 Timothy, Paul talks about individuals whose faith had ‘shipwrecked,’ and accordingly, they were handed over to Satan. But regarding the scriptures of which I provided an exegesis, could you explain how you are interpreting them differently? They seem so plain and clear to me, especially in the Greek, but even in the various English translations that are available.
Test Yourselves to See If You Are in the Faith:
Assurance Based on Our Works?
2 Corinthians 13:5
a article by Bob Wilkin
According to some Paul taught in 2 Corinthians 13:5 that believers are regularly to examine their lives for the purpose of finding out if they are truly believers or not. One recent author cited this passage to prove his point that “Doubts about one’s salvation are not wrong so long as they are not nursed and allowed to become an obsession. Scripture encourages self-examination. Doubts must be confronted and dealt with honestly and biblically.” Then, after quoting 2 Corinthians 13:5 he concludes, “That admonition is largely ignored–and often explained away–in the contemporary church.” (John F. MacArthur, Jr., The Gospel According to Jesus, p.190).
What evidence is there that such an interpretation is correct? The verse indicates that the Corinthian believers were to test themselves for the purpose of seeing if they are in the faith and if Christ is in them. At first glance this seems clearly to be talking about assurance by self-examination. However, when the exact nature of the purpose of this self-examination is carefully considered, we find that assurance of salvation is not in view at all. Several observations support this conclusion.
First, Paul was writing to believers, not to unbelievers. All through the letter of 2 Corinthians Paul asserted this. Notice the following examples. “To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in Achaia” (1:1). “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a deposit” (1:21-22). “You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; you are manifestly an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but the Spirit of the living God” (3:2-3). “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers” (6:14). “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ” (8:9). “Finally, brethren, farewell. . . . The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (13:11, 14).
Paul did not question the salvation of his readers. He repeatedly affirmed it. Whatever understanding we adopt for 2 Corinthians 13:5 must take this into account.
Second, the church at Corinth had been filled with divisions, strife, envy, drunkenness, and immorality(1 Cor. 1:11; 3:1-3; 5:9-6:20; 11:21, 30) when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. And yet he affirmed rather than questioned their salvation in 1 Corinthians as well (cf. 1 Cor. 1:2; 3:1; 6:11,19-20). In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 and 6:19-20 Paul referred to their carnality and yet called them “babes in Christ” and those whose “body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.” First Corinthians 3:1-3 and 6:19-20 cannot be reconciled with the view that in 2 Corinthians 13:5 Paul taught believers to look to their works for assurance.
Third, Paul taught in Romans that believers can be sure that they are saved (Rom. 5:1; 8:31-39). However, if one looks to his works for assurance, he can never have absolute assurance since no one’s works are flawless.
Paul does not tell the Corinthian believers to examine their works in order to see if they are saved, or to see if they are a part of God’s family. He has in mind another purpose for their self-examination. Let’s carefully consider the two phrases Paul uses to indicate what looking to one’s works is to show.
In the faith. While this could refer to salvation, it could equally as well refer to sanctification. Paul could be asking the Corinthian believers to see if they are abiding in the faith in their experience. If not, they would be backsliders, out-of-fellowship believers. In this context and in light of the objections already raised, it is certain that “in the faith” refers to sanctification, not salvation.
Christ in you. This, too, could refer to salvation. Christ lives in all believers. However, it could also refer to sanctification. As Munger’s booklet “My Heart Christ’s Home” points out, Christ is only at home in the lives of believers to the degree we obey Him. In light of the context and above-stated objections, it is clear that Paul is asking the Corinthian believers to examine their works to see if Christ is in them experientially. Are their works Christlike? If so, the Lord Jesus is indeed active in their experience. If not, they are not in Christ in their experience.
There is a key piece of contextual evidence which confirms the sanctification interpretation I have laid out. It is a term which occurs in verses 5,6, and 7. The term is disqualified (adokimos in Greek). This is a term which elsewhere in Paul’s writings and in the NT is used exclusively of believers. Indeed, Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:27 used this exact term in reference to himself. He said that he buffeted his body and pressed on in his service for Christ so that he might not be disqualified from the rewards which will go to faithful believers. God will only approve of the deeds of faithful believers. Those who fail the test Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians 13:5 will be disapproved for rewards. However, they will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15).
A related noun and verb of the just cited term further support the sanctification view. In verse 3 Paul indicates that some of the Corinthians were seeking proof (dokimén) that Christ was speaking in Paul. Then in verse 5 Paul turns the tables on them and challenges them to prove themselves (dokimazó). What some of the Corinthians questioned was not Paul’s salvation. It was his sanctification. They questioned whether he was a true spokesman and apostle of Christ. Likewise, when he turned the tables he questioned their sanctification, not their salvation.
Nowhere do the Scriptures call believers to look to their works for assurance. We are called to look to Christ and find our assurance in Him. However, repeatedly in the Scriptures believers are called to look to their works to find out how they are doing in their walk with Christ. Second Corinthians 13:5 is one such verse. Yes, as believers we are to examine ourselves regularly. The purpose is to ensure that we are doing our best in our service for Christ.
d taylor, I’m more interested in your direct response to my post than your copy-paste of someone else’s article. This isn’t even slightly responsive to what I posted. When I referenced 2 Corinthians 13, it was to illustrate what the word αδοκιμος means. Please go back, grab your bible, and try to work your way through my post. It will pay off in the end. Less google, more bible, okay?
show me another book of the Bible (The Gospel of John) who says it purpose for being written is to tell people how to have life (eternal life).
and i will continue to discuss this issue, if you can not the case is closed.
because all other book are written to believers and concern discipleship / the living of the Christian life.
d taylor,
Your theory, as I understand it, is that only the Gospel of John is valid for understanding justification? And you think that the other books are in conflict with the Gospel of John? When God wrote about how justification works in the other books, He wasn’t speaking authoritatively? Or is it that you think that no other canonical book was written in order to explain how justification works? If they aren’t in conflict, then you should be able to answer arguments about them. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this seems basically like a way to dodge having to open up your Bible and work through my exegesis. And I am honestly interested in hearing your views on those scriptures, as I think their meaning is plain and so I would like to understand how someone with your unique theological perspective interprets them to mean something different. I’m willing to be persuaded if your position lines up better with the Greek text than mine. But if you aren’t going to meet me halfway, and your heart is already hardened, I will move on to more productive discussions (as I have had, for instance, with Patti).
First, as a preliminary comment, the Gospel of John does teach that it is possible to fall away. After prophesying about persecution, Jesus promises to send the Holy Spirit, and says “I have told you this so that you may not fall away.” (John 16:1). That is, the Holy Spirit will be there for you to sustain you in your time of trouble if you let Him in. The Holy Spirit gives us the strength to avoid falling away. Jesus *told* his disciples this so that they wouldn’t give up hope and fall away instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit was going to *force* the disciples to remain firm in the faith, Jesus wouldn’t need to tell them and encourage them to rely on the Holy Spirit instead of falling away. In chapter 14, Jesus exhorts his disciples to keep his commandments, saying whoever loves him will keep his commandments, and it is only those people who will be loved by the Father. One is justified by believing in and loving Jesus. One remains justified by continuing to believe in and love Jesus. God gives us the very grace we need to do just that — we just need to soften our hearts and cooperate with that grace. Additionally, and I think this is very straightforward, in chapter 15 Jesus tells us that we must *remain* and that it is possible to fall away: “*If* a man *remains* in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. *If* anyone does not *remain* in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.” The plain meaning of that verse should be crystal clear.
Your quote from the Gospel of John (20:30-31) says that the book was written *so that* people would *continue to* believe. (Not “so that people would *know how* to believe” — here again is your gnosticism showing through). The word for believe is πιστευσητε, which is in the aorist tense and subjunctive mood. It has the sense of an urging for something to occur and continue. Also, the first word of verse 31, ταυτα, these, refers to the antecedent σημεια, the signs (literally a military standard), not the book itself. It is an explanation of how the signs reported in the gospel were chosen from the many that Jesus performed (εποιησεν). (Incidentally, if your theory were right that the Gospel of John is written for non-believers, then it would make sense that the emphasis would be on how to become justified, rather than how to avoid apostasy). John 19:35 also indicates a second purpose of the Gospel–it was written so that people would *come to* believe on the basis of the testimony given.
So two purposes: coming to believe, and continuing to believe, both of which are key to eternal life. The Gospel is written like a legal case, convicting the Jews of wrongfully executing their Messiah. The Gospel illustrates this with proof after proof, especially in the book of signs. The miracles, the things Jesus said, the fulfilled prophecies — all of that is written so that the reader, apprehending those things, would come to and continue to believe in Jesus. That’s what is meant by “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.” The point is to explain that the particular signs that are reported in John were chosen not as an exhaustive list, but so as to illustrate and prove that Jesus is the Lord. We both agree (presumably) that believing in Jesus is the means by which one is justified. I don’t understand how you can take these two sentences as an excuse to ignore everything else that God has to say about justification and salvation. If your pastor told you to do this, run, do not walk, from that Church. God is not to be mocked or trivialized or ignored (Galatians 6:7-9). And in any event, the point is to get people to *continue* to believe, and thereby have eternal life.
But yes, other books in the Bible are explicitly written to tell believers how they can be justified and have eternal life. Just one example: 1 John 5:13, “I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.” How do we know? “In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments.” (verses 2 and 3). That’s what faith means — loving God and keeping His commandments. Once we say we no longer need to do so, or that we no longer love God, we no longer have faith. God gives us the ability to keep His commandments, which is why John says that they are “not burdensome.”
You admit that other books are written to believers for hortatory purposes. So when those books warn of the danger of falling away, and how doing so will cause you to be damned, your response is what?
2 Timothy 2:12: “If we persevere, we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.” Why the conditional? Why not just say “we cannot fail to persevere, so we shall reign with him. We cannot deny him, so he won’t deny us” ? Again, look at the plain meaning of the text, and try to forget or bracket of all the theological teachings of men that you have accumulated, and just ask yourself, ‘why would someone write this to an audience of believers?’
The parable of the sower we have discussed already. I agree with Patti that those who have deep roots are secure. But I disagree with you vehemently that those with no roots who initially have great love for God but then fall away are saved. To say such a thing is to miss the point of the parable. Now, that puts you in good company, as the apostles very often missed the point of the parables, at first. But they were open to correction and eventually by faith through grace came to the truth.
Again, Romans 11:20-22 — “They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you either. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Key points — the audience is people who have faith. That is established in verse 20. Paul tells them not to be cavalier or presumptuous because, verse 21, perhaps God will not spare you either. Yikes! In verse 22, we are reminded of both the kindness and the severity of God. God’s kindness extends to the audience — remember, they have faith and are currently justified — but Paul says that kindness is conditional, and it bears repeating: “provided that you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” If you think one can be cut off from God and still be saved, you are misunderstanding one of the most basic premises of Christianity.
Jude was going to write his letter concerning “our common salvation,” but alarming news made him instead write his letter “to encourage you to contend for the faith.” So, the audience is believers, the intention is to encourage them to remain in the faith. How does he proceed with his argument? First: “I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that [the] Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe” (Jude 1:5). Here we have an echo of Romans 11:21. So, Jude said to his audience — don’t forget that even after God has saved someone, he will destroy them if they cease believing. Jude exhorts his readers to “keep yourselves in the love of God,” and to try to snatch those who have fallen away from the fire — but to do so “with fear, abhorring even the outer garment stained by the flesh.” Why fear? These stained garments are a reference to Zechariah, and the idea is an allusion to disease and contagion. That is, when dealing with those who are falling away or have fallen away, one must be careful not to get too close and to ‘catch’ the disease of apostacy. So the audience is enjoined to rescue those who have been led astray, but to exercise great caution while doing so. Jude refers to the parable of the sower in calling these people ‘uprooted.’
What was that other gospel that Jude was warning about false prophets teaching? It was none other than “Once saved, always saved.” This is why I continue to urge and rebuke–this teaching endangers your relationship with God. Keeping it is bad enough; woe to the teacher who teaches falsely.
You will note that every verse that provides assurance of salvation does so in the present tense. I agree that you can be assured that you currently have salvation. You just cannot be assured that you won’t later become apostate.
Remember the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:12 (I analyzed the Greek in my previous post): “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!” Later, Paul says “By this gospel you are saved, *if* you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:2).
If you aren’t interested in instruction and learning from scriptures, I respect that. But if you are, I am here and willing to help you work through the New Testament corpus. I can help you with the Greek if you want to learn directly from the scriptures. But if your only interest is in arguing and your only argument is that you refuse to accept statements about justification from books outside the Gospel of John, then I’m going to have to wish you well and shake the dust off of my feet.
I finally got to examining what you were saying in your 2500 word response. I do agree, these are telling us as believers that some do fall away from believing. There is so much encouragement for believers…my favorite is John 10:27-30, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”…. However, as Paul is illustrating in the runners in the race, eternity in heaven with God’s elect is “the promise and the hope” we have in Christ. We are still alive in this fallen world, and the spiritual battle rages on against us. We are told that God is with us to help us, He “preserves us in our persevere nice,” but we should never presume we are safe!
Just now pondering your comment about “Peter repenting , after he denied Christ three times in one night, being before there was salvation to loose.” That comment makes it sound like no one who lived prior to Christ’s work on the cross went to heaven. Many references in the Old Testament about God’s salvation, and saving His people. I think you did not mean that as it sounded. Peter did not have the Holy Spirit with him yet, and later when he did, he sure persevered to the end including his own crucifixion! Also, I was amused by your comment about not liking the words of the worship songs and hymns to be projected on a screen (just another example of “you can’t please everybody.”) we have 5 grown children, and I non of them are Christians, which saddens me more than I can say; However, two of my grandchildren wanted to go to church with me and were allowed to go for two Sundays now. I get tears in my eyes just thinking how during the singing, my little 6 1/2 yr old grand daughter was looking up at the screen and reading those words and singing along with the congregation! I pray God will give her a receptive heart! And all my kids and grand kids too. (14 grand kids total.)
Yeah, I’m not sure that I meant the comment about Peter as it sounded. I’m actually not very dogmatic about the atonement or pre-christian saints; I was just surprised because my Reformed friends tend to be hyper-logical — X causes Y causes Z — about atonement and justification. My feeling is that the atonement is something that happened in history, but also that steps outside of time and is always already happening, echoing through time both past and future. As you note, so much of salvation history prefigures the life, death, and resurrection. The flood prefigures baptism, the arc prefigures the cross. The passover lamb, whose blood causes the angel of death to not strike and the eating of which unites you to the sacrifice, thereby causing your sins to be forgiven obviously prefigures the Eucharist and more generally the atonement. There are a lot of passages in the Old Testament that are prophetic, in a certain sense, but also accurate in describing past events, because I think the entire structure of history is built around the atoning work of Jesus.
So, in the Book of Wisdom, for example, there is a discussion about how wood can be used for evil — wooden idols — but also for good– the arc. The key line is here:
“For of old, when the proud giants were being destroyed,
the hope of the universe, who took refuge on a raft,
left to the world a future for the human family, under the guidance of your hand.
For blest is the wood through which righteousness comes about” (Wisdom 14:6-7)
This seems, to me at least, to be a very prophetic note on the cross, but at the same time reveals the symbolic similiarity between the cross and the arc.
Also in Wisdom, there is a discussion of Wisdom personified as the ‘Righteous One,’ and it is simply amazing that something like this could be written a few centuries before Jesus was born:
“Let us lie in wait for the righteous one, because he is annoying to us;
he opposes our actions,
Reproaches us for transgressions of the law[c]
and charges us with violations of our training.
He professes to have knowledge of God
and styles himself a child of the Lord.
To us he is the censure of our thoughts;
merely to see him is a hardship for us,
Because his life is not like that of others,
and different are his ways.
He judges us debased;
he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure.
He calls blest the destiny of the righteous
and boasts that God is his Father.
Let us see whether his words be true;
let us find out what will happen to him in the end.
For if the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him
and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
With violence and torture let us put him to the test
that we may have proof of his gentleness
and try his patience.
Let us condemn him to a shameful death;
for according to his own words, God will take care of him.” (Wisdom 2:12-20)
More than just a prophecy, I think this shows that the death of Jesus was, in some mysterious way, relevant and available to those even before He did what He did. So, it wouldn’t surprise me if justification was operative in pre-Christian times in a similar sort of way as in the new covenant. I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other as it makes no difference to my life or my relationship with God, but it is interesting to think about.
That’s great that you granddaughter was enjoying her time at church. You never know, maybe she will bring her parents to faith later in life. My parents were atheists but I eventually convinced them to attend church (a Lutheran church — best I could do under the circumstances) and a few years later my dad was president of the congregation, my mom and sister had been baptized and were also active members.
Regarding the sower, you might be right that it is being made more difficult than it need be. I think this happens once you start thinking about strict formulas that try to reduce various points in scripture to clean formulae–ironically, you make things less simple through the act of trying to simplify. This leads to so many of the pointless divisions in the Church — justification by faith alone vs. justification by an active faith, perseverance of the saints, election, will, etc. To some extent you need to have some coherent theology, but in the process you get all these different sects with their fine distinctions that are meaningless. However, the distinction that d taylor is suggesting is way out of the bounds of Christianity, in that “he” (I don’t know what he actually thinks or if he has well-defined thoughts of his own, because he just pastes in what others have thought) thinks that if you express faith, you can then recant it, and live the rest of your life in utter debauchery, with no love of God and no regeneration of the soul and no Holy Spirit or Jesus in your life at all, and it won’t matter because it’s just all the same to God. Now, I might think that that person had faith for a brief time and then fell away. You might think that he was never elect in the first place. Frankly, there isn’t a super meaningful distinction there–it is kind of metaphysical. But we would both agree that that person is not saved, because authentic faith comes with evidence, with works, with sanctification. Not perfection, not by a long shot, but a repentent heart and conviction by the Holy Spirit and the ability to overcome tests of our faith through the grace of God. For d taylor, however, none of that is part of Christianity. A saved person, for “him,” doesn’t necessarily ever repent from his sins or anything, is not regenerated, and even can become apostate forever. These ‘free grace’ people are seriously scary — they are often involved in sexual scandals and even in at least one case polygamy. There is a saying that all heresy begins between the legs, and there is some truth to it. Their statement of “faith,” or rather their statement of blasphemy, says: “No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered part of, faith.” That is not an adequate understanding of faith for anyone who is a Christian, regardless of one’s tradition. The Holy Spirit convicts believers of sin — one with faith is going to have sorrow for their sins. That, to me, is non-negotiable.
The Book of Wisdom you quoted, is this Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or something else? I did use the phrase ” God’s elect” because it is in the Bible, but I don’t understand all that it entails. so much mystery, yet still basic enough to hear the message of the Gospel!
Patti,
No, it is called the Book of Wisdom. It is one of the books in the Old Testament that Martin Luther removed, following the Jews (they didn’t include certain book sin their Masoretic canon in the second century to help distinguish themselves from Christians, who especially valued the Septuagint canon, which included them). Some protestant bibles include them, but many don’t. You can read it on Bible Gateway — here’s the second chapter: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=wisdom+2&version=NABRE Wisdom was influential on Paul’s thinking and language — e.g., compare Wisdom 5:15-20 and Ephesians 6:10-18. It is one of my favorite books of the Old Testament, along with Isaiah.
Incidentally, the Book of Wisdom is also the only book in the Old Testament that uses the world elect (ἐκλεκτός), and in a proto-Christian context — the elect, for the author of Wisdom, would inherit eternal life:
1The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them.
2 They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead;
and their passing away was thought an affliction
3 and their going forth from us, utter destruction.
But they are in peace.
4 For if to others, indeed, they seem punished,
yet is their hope full of immortality;
5 Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed,
because God tried them
and found them worthy of himself.
6 As gold in the furnace, he proved them,
and as sacrificial offerings[c] he took them to himself.
7 In the time of their judgment[d] they shall shine
and dart about as sparks through stubble;
8 They shall judge nations and rule over peoples,
and the Lord shall be their King forever.
9 Those who trust in him shall understand truth,
and the faithful shall abide with him in love:
Because grace and mercy are with his holy ones,
and his care is with the elect.
(Wisdom 3:1-9)
thanks, I will look at this Book of Wisdom. Look up the words “elect” and “election” in your concordance, there are many places in the Bible where it comes up. Another “deep subject”!
Correction, you are right, it is the NT that mentions the elect or election….several times.
Patti i will say the Bible teaches if we have trusted/believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah (Son of God) and placed our trust in Him for the gift of eternal life it is ours never to be lost. as John 5:24 promises
John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
It can not get any simpler or clearer and this message is repeated again and again in John, but still people will try to complicate and confuse this simple and clear message.
Just keep your assurance focused on Christ and His promise of eternal life to those who believe. and not on any work you may do.
as a believer, work yes but to receive rewards at the Judgment of Christ so Christ may say
Matthew 25:23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
We all agree that “the one who believes” will not be condemned. I am talking about those who stop believing. That is what the author of Hebrews means when he talks about people who were enlightened, who tasted the holy spirit, but then fell away. Or in Galatians 4, those who knew God and were known by God, but then rejected their faith and went back to Judaizing.
As you can say, it cannot be clearer. It is repeated again and again and again in inspired scripture. Almost as if God was trying to tell you something, eh?
you commented about Hebrews do you understand Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who were considering going back to the Judaism they had left. they were doing this to avoid percussion. and the writer of Hebrews was addressing this saying if they do go back to Judaism they again will place themselves under Gods coming wrath/ judgement in 70 ad.
Hebrews has nothing to do with eternal salvation it is addressing physical salvation.
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
The readers and the author are united by the us in verse 3 and are distinguished from those who were eyewitness (was confirmed to us by those who heard Him)
and the readers were Jewish believers (holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling)
Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
Yes, I understand the occasion and audience of Hebrews. What you are saying reinforces my point. We have Christians who were, as you say, considering apostasy. That is what falling away means. Anyone who believes has eternal life; those who cease believing, whether through Judaizing or idolatry or through the unwillingness to repent of grave sin, are making a choice not to believe, a decision God will honor. No believer will ever be lacking in the grace needed to withstand the temptation to fall away, but one must cooperate with that grace.
since a believer by your theology can lose eternal life, can you show me a verse in the Bible that warns of this danger.
that is as clear as verses telling a person how to receive eternal life.
example of the clarity i am looking for in the verse telling a believer that they can lose eternal life.
John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.
or
John 6:28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds God requires?”
John 6:29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed God requires – to believe in the one whom he sent.”
John 6:47 I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes in me has eternal life
and i would like the word eternal life (and not words like crown, etc..) in the verse.
so as there will be not doubt about the understanding of the verse telling a believer that they can lose the Gift of eternal life once given by God.
interesting in Jude you write
{How does he proceed with his argument? First: “I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that [the] Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe” (Jude 1:5). Here we have an echo of Romans 11:21. So, Jude said to his audience — don’t forget that even after God has saved someone, he will destroy them if they cease believing.}
how do you cease believing from people that was described as (those who did not believe) are you saying they once believed. if so you are reading an idea in the verse.
or even so if they were all believers how do you know that this destroyed is addressing their eternal life and not physical life.
how do you know that God is speaking about the Jews that is being destroyed and not the Egyptians
Numbers 14:26-35. Argument could be made that Jude is referring not to the Israelites themselves but rather to the unbelieving Egyptian army in pursuit, destroyed in Exod 14:28, since the adverbial function “afterwards” (to deuteros) isn’t specific as to which time the adjective (functioning as an adjective with temporal force) is referring. However, Heb 3:12-19 reminds us that the exiting Israelites did suffer because of unbelief This includes Moses (Num 20:12; Deut 34:4-5)
The expression “keep yourselves in God’s love” is an odd choice since the Lord and all NT writers taught eternal security. Once a person has everlasting life, he has it forever (e.g. John 6:35; 11:26; Rom 8:31-39). Notice how Jude does not instruct his readers to “keep [themselves]
born again,” nor to “keep [themselves] justified.”
You say: “since a believer by your theology can lose eternal life, can you show me a verse in the Bible that warns of this danger.”
First of all, it isn’t “my” theology, but the one believed by Christians for the better part of 2000 years and the one clearly represented in holy scripture. But second of all, did you not read my post, the one that starts with “But then why is he afraid…”? I spent quite a bit of time on that post, it is nearly 2500 words, and it contains verse after verse after verse after verse that shows warning of that danger. It contains detailed analysis of the Greek words that the inspired authors used.
You show verses that show that someone who currently believes is currently saved. I agree with that. You have never shown a verse that shows that someone who currently believes but then falls into apostasy will also be saved. You won’t find a verse like that because it just isn’t true. In your comment on Jude, the key phrase in the verse is “once saved.” I didn’t read that into the verse. The purpose of the verse is to show that someone who was once saved can later be destroyed by the Lord if they fall away. It is a warning. If it weren’t relevant to Christians, Jude wouldn’t have wrote it to Christians. *Obviously* he is referring the to Jews, not the Egyptians, because he didn’t save the Egyptians. He saved the Jews, but then they fell into apostasy with the golden calf, and so many of them were destroyed. But it honestly doesn’t even matter who he is referring to, the warning is to Christians about the fact that just because God once saves someone that He won’t later destroy them if they don’t hold to the faith.
The Bible teaches eternal security for those who pass from this life while justified. It doesn’t teach that you can believe and then do whatever you want, utter whatever blasphemies you want to utter, openly reject God and His teachings, and expect to be saved.
Please, examine the series of verses in the above referenced post with your Bible in hand, and then get back to me. Try if you can to put aside this theology of men that you have been taught or that you came up with on your own, and read those verses with an open mind and let the Holy Spirit in. If you cooperate with the Holy Spirit, I’m sure you will be enlightened.
Saul comes to mind as one who turned away from God
1 Samuel 15:10 Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, 11 “I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the Lord all night.
1 Samuel 15:15 – God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams.-
He became an enemy of God
1 Samuel 15:16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?
yet Samuel states that he (Saul) will be with him tomorrow where is Samuel in paradise (Abraham’s bosom)
1 Samuel 15:19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
and Saul committed suicide. He lost his physical life but keep his eternal life.
1 Timothy 1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
No any indication in these verses that loss of eternal life is in view
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
There can be no reasonable doubt that believers are in view. The five participial phrases in vv 4-5 cannot reasonably be understood any other way. Only believers can be said (1) to have been enlightened, (2) to have tasted the heavenly gift, (3) to have become partakes of the Holy Spirit, (4) to have tasted the good word of God, and (5) to have tasted the powers of the age to come. One commentator has noted that it would be exceedingly difficult to come up with a stronger way of identifying those in question as believers.
Verse 6 is clearly dealing with falling away from the faith. The Jewish Christians being addressed were considering a return to animal sacrifices (cf. 2:1-18; 3:12; 7:11-28; 10:1-18). They were being influenced to give up believing that the death of Jesus was enough to pay the penalty for their sins and provide eternal life to those who believe.
The person who commits doctrinal apostasy cannot be reasoned with. Once a person apostatizes it becomes humanly impossible to renew him or her to “repentance.”
The word repentance here means a change of thinking. No human being can change the thinking of a believer who has fallen away from the faith. (Only God could possibly do that.)
Many interpreters err here because they assume that the author is saying that such a person is eternally condemned. Actually the text doesn’t say anything even approaching that. All it is saying is that it is humanly impossible to change the thinking of a believer who falls away from the faith. This passage in no way questions eternal security. Once a person is saved he forever remains saved. However, a saved person may have a fiery experience here and now!
Like any good preacher, the author of the Book of Hebrews gives a practical illustration to clarify his point. The illustration is the easiest way to explain vv 44.
Thorns and briers–or thorns and thistles are a common OT motif going back to the Garden of Eden. God cursed the ground as a result of Adam’s sin and said that it would yield thorns and thistles (Gen 3:18). There is an obvious allusion here to that passage. Just as the curse resulted in thorns and thistles, so thorns and thistles will result in a curse. The ground–that is, the believer–that yields thorns and thistles is near to being cursed and indeed it will soon be burned.
Burning is seen by some commentators to refer here to hell. However, there is no good reason to draw such a conclusion. Except where qualified by modifiers like eternal or unquenchable, fire and burning in Scripture most often picture temporal judgment (cf. Gen 19:24; Lev 10:2; Joshua 7:15; 2 Sam 22:9; 2 Kings 1:10ff.; Dan 3:22ff.; Amos 1:4,7,10,12,14; 2:2,5; Luke 9:54; John 15:6; 1 Cor 3:13-15; Heb 11:34; Jude 23). Such an understanding fits perfectly well here.
The ground represents the believer. The thorns and thistles represent the worthless (Gk. adokimos–a term used of believers being disapproved for eternal rewards in 1 Cor 9:27!) and wicked production of his life similar to the wood, hay, and stubble of 1 Cor 3:12-15. When the ground is burned, the thorns and thistles are destroyed, not the ground. The ground remains.
It was a common practice in the agriculture of the day to burn the worthless overgrowth of a field that it might be restored to productivity (see the reference in Elder Pliny, Historia Naturalis, XVII. 300. 72). The author of the Book of Hebrews apparently holds out the possibility that God might restore the apostate, via chastisement, without taking him home. (The impossibility of renewing apostates to repentance concerns a human impossibility prior to God’s chastising work. Fiery chastisement will certainly fall on the apostate. However, once this fire has done its work, it is conceivable that the apostate might come back to the faith. Compare 1 Tim 1:19-20.)
Grace Evangelical Society
Alright, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Here is why. You didn’t even have the discipline to follow my post with your bible and work through it, but instead just copy and pasted. The Bible? No, you’ll take Google over the Bible. Greek? Nah, no reason to learn Greek. You’ll just trust the good folks at Grace Evangelical Society. Come on d taylor. Are you that dead to the Holy Spirit that you can’t even open your Bible and look things up on your own and write a coherent thought without plagiarizing?
I really didn’t ask you for a lot. Just an open mind and an open Bible. And the courage to explore what God has to say without reading some intermediary that you’ve googled and then pasting the content. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?”
“You” say: “Many interpreters err here because they assume that the author is saying that such a person is eternally condemned. Actually the text doesn’t say anything even approaching that. All it is saying is that it is humanly impossible to change the thinking of a believer who falls away from the faith. This passage in no way questions eternal security. Once a person is saved he forever remains saved. However, a saved person may have a fiery experience here and now!”
So, “you” have an a priori belief in once saved always saved and are interpreting all scriptures in light of that view. I see now that “you” aren’t precisely a Calvinist/Reformed Christian, but follow a ‘free grace’ sect — in my opinion, even less reasonable than a Calvinist. Grace, in “your” view, is powerful enough to save a person, but not powerful enough to keep them from grave apostasy? Why does the bible warn about grave apostasy then? What possible difference could it make? This is the reason why ‘once saved always saved’ is such a grave heresy. When uttered by a Calvinist, it isn’t so bad because they are basically just radical Augustinians. But in “your” hands, it is a license to sin. That radical antinominism had been condmned by true Christians for two thousand years.
“You” don’t even admit that being cut off from God and burned by God = hell. If you don’t understand that, then it figures you don’t understand all the verses that I’ve shown you.
Romans 11:22: “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
But “you” think that being “cut” off from God’s kindness doesn’t mean hell, no doubt, right? And all of my analysis of the actual Greek words count nothing for you, because either you have some a priori belief that overrides it or you are too lazy to look up the words or you just don’t care.
Galatians 5:4: “You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
But “you” probably think being separated from Christ and falling from Grace is not a problem — God will still merrily let “you” into heaven, right? “You” don’t need Christ, naturally — no free gracer needs Christ, apparently.
2 Peter 2:20: “For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.”
The last condition is worse than their first condition, before they were justified. But even that, in “your” warped view, doesn’t mean hell?
I tried really hard with “you.” I guess you can lead a free gracer to the Bible, but you can’t make him read. Sad. I’ll pray for you.
In a way, it is fitting. If you believe in cheap and easy salvation that comes with no repentence, no faithfulness, no love for God, etc., then why should you put any effort into your faith at all?
I have been following along with you on this discussion, and if I may interject a thought…it seems you are making the parable of the sower more difficult than it is, especially since Jesus Himself gives us the interpretation. Even before the explanation, it is clear that only the seed that falls on good soil grows and produces a hundredfold. In the explanation, the other seeds (people’s response to God’s word) varied from momentary interest, no interest, to belief for awhile,until the cares and distractions of the world (thorns) can cause a person to fall away. However, just from personal observation, faith does develope over time. It is normal to struggle with doubts, but that is why we ask questions and learn why we believe what we believe. A person may even be distracted for a long time, but then feel the desire to repent and get serious about their faith ..again, only God really knows the heart of a person. In the story of the man who brought his Demon oppressed son to Jesus for healing, the man said,”I believe,help my unbelief!” God helps us, but some “pseudo-followers” I will call them, do fall away.
Patti not sure if you are speaking to me or both. Or just to the priest or Greek professor that is posting in this discussion, who is posting information from his catholic beliefs.
But my position is this, i believe belief is a black and white issue either a person has believed or they have not. all false professors/ false deceivers never believed in the first place. so they have no belief to fall away from.
some (false professors) could have been from the wrong understanding of what is the correct object to place faith in, a contemporary example could be a person walking a church isle and placing their faith in that action or a person who invites Jesus into their heart or a person trusting in baptism or service in the church etc..
and then there are false deceivers that come into try and destroy the faith or draw/attract believers to their false teachings.
the first group i see out of ignorance they never believe from never getting a correct understanding of the correct object of faith.
where as the second group are enemies of Christ they also do not understand the object of faith but there seems to be an evil intent behind their unbelief. and of course you can find unbelievers in various degrees between the two groups of unbelievers
as in both cases as it is said in the parable of the soils. the devil prevents some people, not sure if every unbeliever can be attributed to the devil. away but i still believe in the Bible when a person in said to have believed as in the second, third and fourth soil that those are real believers in Christ and have eternal life.
and that if it is true as i believe the Bible teaches that Eternal life is given and kept by Christ with out the requirement of any works.
Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
The works come into factor in living the life of discipleship and service. notice in the Bible when works are in the picture they come along with a judgement. for the believer the Judgment seat of Christ, for the unbeliever the great white throne judgment.
and concerning the judgment seat of Christ i see nowhere is this a judgement seat seeing if the person has stayed faithful so they will receive eternal life. it is a judgment for receiving rewards or even some kind of punishment for not living up to how a believer should have lived on earth
1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
what is burned up the bad works not a person eternal life
2 Corinthians 5:9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
as for information posted about belief in The Gospel of John and there are usually at least two points of views on most topics. i will post below from a greek professor another perspective on belief in the Gospel of John.
A fundamental premise is that the purpose of the Gospel of John is evangelistic This purpose is quite clearly stated in John 20:30-31. Nevertheless, I am well aware that the subject of John‘s purpose is debated in the current technical literature During the 20th century Raymond E. Brown was probably the premier Johannine scholar in the English speaking world He was a lifelong Roman Catholic, and an ordained priest,of moderately liberal persuasion His magisterial two-volume commentary on John remains a gold-mine for all students of the Fourth Gospel He passed away suddenly on August 8, 1998
The year before his death Brown published a massive volume (over 900 pages) entitled An Introduction to the New Testament It distilled his enormous scholarly knowledge In that volume he comments on the issue of John‘s purpose:
Luke explains his purpose at the beginning of his Gospel (1:1-4), but John saves his statement of intention till the end. In selecting material to be included in the Gospel his goal has been to have people come to faith or increase in faith (disputed reading) in Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God, and through this faith to possess eternal life in his name.
This pretty well reflects the state of affairs even a decade later. Brown rightly locates the center of the discussion in the textual problem found in John 20:31. The problem concerns the presence or absence of a single letter (a sigma) in the phrase “that you might believe” (hina pisteu[s]ate) With it, the verb is aorist; without it, present.
Those who deny the evangelistic purpose of John‘s Gospel typically depend heavily on the present tense. They think that the present suggests the idea, “that you might continue to believe.” The 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland GNT indicates that the present tense is found in three old manuscripts plus a few others; the rest support the aorist.
Actually it makes no difference at all which reading is accepted The view that the present tense supports the idea of “continue to believe” is a semantic fallacy. This was pointed out as long ago as 1975 by Johannes P. Louw. Louw was the co-editor with Eugene Nida of the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains.
In 1975 Louw published an article, “Verbal Aspect in the First Letter of John,” in the journal Neotestamentica There Louw states:
The Greek praesens [present tense] is aspectually neutral or unmarked, it is a zero tense. It . . . may be used if the context suggests linear or habitual occurrence, and often verbs denoting processes . . . give the impression that the praesens signifies duration though the praesens itself merely states the occurrence as a fact
On the next page he adds, “it is a zero tense of factual actuality.”I know, of course, that this is not what was taught in Greek class-rooms for the last several generations. Most scholars were weaned on the idea that the present tense expressed on-going, or continuous, action. But this idea is a grammatical fallacy. If you read your Greek NT with the same facility you do English, you can easily see for yourself that Louw‘s position is a slam dunk.
I am sorry to say this, but you can get a reputation as a Greek scholar without reading your Greek NT that easily.That‘s because the field of NT Greek is loaded to the max with helpful tools – with lexicons, grammars, word studies, commentaries, the whole nine yards. You don‘t need to know very much to use all these tools. The number of skilled semanticists like Louw is quite small. I once heard some lectures by his co editor, Eugene Nida, reputed to be a linguistic genius. I suspect Louw is not too far behind.
Of course, not everyone has fallen into the “tense trap.” You can find a competent, conservative defense of John‘s evangelistic purpose in Carson, Moo,and Morris‘s An Introduction to the New Testament.
What‘s the bottom line? It is simply this Neither in John 20:30-31, nor anywhere else in the Fourth Gospel as far as I can tell, does John employ the present tense of the verb pisteuō (“believe”) with any suggestion of continuous action. The idea that John‘s purpose was to get people to “continue to believe” does not have a shred of linguistic evidence. It is an idea based on a zero tense and it has zero probability
…and you still can’t open your bible and form a coherent thought that you didn’t copy and paste from some other website. Your faith must mean so much to you.
The idea that believers can be saved and also punished by God at the judgment is interesting. You protestants usually criticize Catholics for this (this is how purgatory is sometimes misunderstood).
But you’ve already said that someone can “believe,” in the cheapest, emptiest way, and then immediate recant and apostasize as described in Hebrews 6, and then still be saved. That contradicts your statements about works — the Holy Spirit regenerates the saved and the evidence is in their works. But you don’t believe this, because you assented to the above scenario. Your beliefs are not just heretical and demeaning to Christ, but internally inconsistent.
If you are going to bother to reply to me, please do me the respect of not plagiarizing the thoughts of others, and thinking for yourself. If you were a student of mine, I’d have reported you to the Dean for expulsion already.
d taylor, I love the book of John, I read it when I wanted to learn about Christ and a Christian co-worker suggested I start there. I was never aware there was a debate about the “purpose” of John’s book. I have learned over the years that John’s focus was on the Deity of Christ, as well as Christ’s message of repentance and eternal life and so much more. John’s book is consistent with the rest of the New Testament…as would be expected, there are no contradictions. as you know, only God knows a person’s heart and motives we can only gauge an assessment by a person’s behavior and actions and works. All of the NT does contain warnings to believers to hang on to their faith, not to be deceived by false teachers, to be “living sacrifices”, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so you can discern what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” Romans 12:1-2. You referred to the parable of the seed sower….I disagree only with the point that it seems clear that ONLY the people in the fourth example( the good soil) are truly saved. Seeds on Rocky ground= scorched (toast!), Seeds among the weeds= choked (life squeezed out!) Paul talks about new believers needing “milk” as compared to “solid food” of the teaching of the Gospel, and living as Christians. We live in a fallen world, and we are subject to ” the world, the flesh, and the devil” to trip us up in our faith. I agree with you, as does the Bible, if you are firmly rooted in your faith, you will run the good race and fight the good fight ( because God helps us to persevere) and will enjoy eternal life, as is the promise. The danger is being too cavalier and presumptuous in our faith, that we go astray.
Patti just wondering you mention repentance in The Gospel of John. with the word not found in The Gospel of John where are you seeing repentance mention in the the Gospel of John.
All through the Old Testament, starting in Genesis 3, is the problem of people and our tendency to sin. The 10 commandments give an outline of the basic sins to be avoided. Blood sacrifices were required for the people’s sins. We read in the OT how God is not pleased when we honor Him with our lips only and not from the heart….he is not pleased with the blood of animals, unless we are doing it from the heart; this would include repentance for sins against God. We are shown over and over how we are all sinners in need of a savior. Now, on to the New Testament and the book of John where it is impressed on us that Jesus is God the Son, one with the Father, who came to save people from their sins. We know John the Baptizer did shout “repent” and his baptism was for repentance of sins, Jesus did not use the same approach, but He did tell the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more.” As scripture is God breathed, it will not contradict itself. We can not be in a saved state and deliberately go on sinning and think we are good with God…is that what you believe? Repent=to change, or turn from sin. Are you saying that a true follower of Christ could be actively involved in murder, bank robbery, identity theft or you name it, and still be bound for heaven? The Bible does not contradict itself, that is basic.
well you are saying (repent) turn from sin does that apply to the smoker, or the alcoholic, or a person that has trouble with eating (glutton), the worrier and really i guess the list can go on.
do these people have to stop those sinful actions for example does the alcoholic have to sober up and become an ex alcoholic first before they can receive eternal life
or are you saying just murder, robbery, and other really bad sins, are the sins that a person has to turn from.
and if there is a difference between sins how do you know which ones to repent from to receive eternal life.
but the mosaic law contains 613 and does the Bible say that if a person breaks the least of these they have broken all of the Law
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Questions, because I do want to understand what you believe: 1) do you sin? 2) do you agree with the Bible that God hates sin? 3) is it okay to ignore sin in your life? 4) Are you aware of it when you sin? 5) if you know that you are guilty of some sin, large or small, what do you do about it, if anything? (6 do you think Jesus cares about your not being concerned about repenting, or turning from sin?
1) do you sin?
yes i do sin, as i have as everybody else the sin nature passed down from Adam
2) do you agree with the Bible that God hates sin?
yes
3) is it okay to ignore sin in your life?
no but many people do, unbelievers and believers, that would be part of the sin nature
4) Are you aware of it when you sin?
yes, am i aware of every single sin not really sure i would not think so
5) if you know that you are guilty of some sin, large or small, what do you do about it, if anything?
the Bible says if you sin confess it and God will forgive it.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
6) do you think Jesus cares about your not being concerned about repenting, or turning from sin?
with Jesus being God what ever is true with God the Father is true with Christ.
is that not why some believers lost their physical life (sin unto death) in the Bible Acts 5:1-11
where have i ever said that i am not concerned about repentance. or turning from sin.
My question concerning repentance / turning from sin is not from a lack of concern about sin.
But to ask anyone when they say that eternal life is by faith and repentance/turning from sin.
then how is that defined, the repentance/turning form sin. where is the sins listed to turn from.
like i was asking is an alcoholic required to sober up and stop drinking before they can receive eternal life and if they are not, why is that sin allowed to continue where others must be turned from certain sins, or the smoker can he continue to smoke and if not then how is that not adding works or a person preforming an action, to a person receiving eternal life.
what about you, do you have children or maybe grandchildren did you confess and turn from from all those years of telling your children or grandchildren that there was a santa claus. because that is a lie plain and simple.
Well, thank you for clarifying your stance on sin, that does help this discussion. From my experience, as well as from reading scripture,some people reach a point of brokenness and desperation in life when they turn to God for help( maybe an alcoholic or drug addict, or maybe just a very angry&frustrated person). At this point sin is probably not a conscious thought, they are just at the point of crying out to God for help. God does answer and starts a work in the heart, conversion being the point of belief. One expression I like, is,”you don’t have to clean yourself up before turning to God”….. He will do help transform you from the inside. Part of this change of dying to self and living in and for Christ, is being convicted of sin in your own life and “turning” from them. Now,being aware of personal sins, a true follower of Christ is sorry and should ask for forgiveness….which God is faithful to do. However, we are not given clearance to keep sinning on purpose with a cavalier attitude. You can’t go to church on Sunday then knowingly be engaged in crimes against God’s laws. That is all I was trying to say….whether or not the word “repent” is actually found in the book of John…it is part of the package of believing in the saving work of Christ and gaining eternal life. Can we agree on that?
Patti you asked (whether or not the word “repent” is actually found in the book of John…it is part of the package of believing in the saving work of Christ and gaining eternal life. Can we agree on that?)
No i do not agree, that repentance is part of an unbeliever receiving eternal life.
well, this has been an interesting discussion; however, I really am baffled by your viewpoint on repentance and salvation not going hand and hand. The entire Bible is consistent about it. So, we will just have to agree to disagree. Keep studying God’s word for His truth and I will too.
This is sophistry. Unbelievers don’t receive eternal life, so nothing is “part of an unbeliever receiving eternal life.” The question is whether it is possible to be a believer who does not repent. It clearly is not. The people who say otherwise are trying to justify living lives of grave sin of which they are unwilling to repent. This is, as I mentioned before, why the ‘free grace’ movement has become nearly synonymous with sexual scandal.
The Bible clearly teaches that John the Baptist was the forerunner, who prepared the way for Jesus. Why was his message necessary in salvation history? His basic position was that people needed to repent. Repetance prepares the way for Jesus. The scriptures teach again and again that repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. This would have been most apparent to the audience of John, given the milieu in which he was writing.
The word in the New Testament for repentance is μετανοέω. It means, literally, to change one’s mind. How is the change from unbelief to belief anything but a change of one’s mind? More specifically, it has the sense of feeling sorry for having done something wrong or for having offended someone. “Faith” that does not include repentance — that is, that does not involve changing one’s mind or inner person — is not faith at all.
This is very directly taught in 2 Corinthians 7:10. There, in the Greek, we have the unambiguous phrase “μετανοιαν εις σωτηριαν” — repentance unto salvation, produced by κατα θεον λυπη, sorrow toward God or Godly sorrow.
John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
Jesus told the woman at the well that if she had but one drink of the living water He offered she would never thirst again. He did not say that she had to keep drinking and drinking. One drink would forever quench her thirst.
It is not eternal faith that appropriates salvation; it is faith that appropriates eternal salvation.
Patti said{I really am baffled by your viewpoint on repentance and salvation not going hand and hand. The entire Bible is consistent about it.}
if it goes hand in hand why is repentance not used in the examples from the Bible below
Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well, Philip and the Ethiopia eunuch, Peter and Cornelius, Paul and the Jailer
I would suggest reading this book, its only around 10.00 dollars. for a very good understanding of repentance and its use in the Bible
http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-God-fresh-look-repentance/dp/1879534045
d taylor, you agreed that you are a sinner. Sin is an offense against God. Yes, God is long suffering and patient with us, giving people time to repent from sin and turn to Him. As I explained, in many cases, people turn to God because they have finally hit bottom , and are broken hearted and desperate ….they may not even have the concept of sin yet, just suffering and look to God. So God does answer and regenerates the heart causing “conversion” or “re-birth.” Then this person can start to see the reality of sin as a personal problem, but God helps with the inner process to change attitudes and behaviors. God’s truth sets us free from sin so we are no longer slaves to sin;however, we still sin daily “in word thought and deed, in things we have done and things we have not done…and as Paul said,”that which I don’t want to do I do, and that which I want to do,I don’t do!” But we strive to improve, and with the help of the Holy Spirit we do change. How can a person become a true Christian,a child of God, and not change sinful behavior? We will never be perfect, but there has to be some change, or how would anyone know you are a Christian? Can you look back over your own life and see how God has helped you change for the better? Love God hate sin…goes together. You simply can not say there is no place for repentance when seeking a relationship with God,now and for eternity.
You mentioned that Jesus did not tell the Samaritan woman at the well to repent. Starting with a call to repentance is not always the best way to draw people in to a discussion, and Jesus would know best! I repeat what I pointed out in a previous post…with the woman caught in adultery, Jesus said He did not condemn her(all of her accusers ran away!) BUT, He did tell her “go and sin no more”…repent.
If you spent half the time reading the Bible that you spend reading Zane Hodges’s… idiosyncratic interpretations, you’d be better off. This mindless repeating of the same ideology, of arguments made by other people, often copied and pasted, is cult-like. Grave sin lies behind efforts to divorce repentance from the gospel. As I’ve explained, repentance in Greek means to have a change of mind. If you don’t think coming to faith involves a change of mind, then “faith” for you is utterly and completely empty.
There could hardly be a doctrine more clearly taught in scripture (to say nothing of the church fathers) than that repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand. What was Jesus’s very first message, when He began to preach the gospel?
“Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God: ‘This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.’ ” – Mark 1:14
And while He was preaching the gospel, what did He say? Those who do not repent of their old lives will lose it, but those who hate their old ways will inherit eternal life:
“Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.” – John 12:25
And what was Jesus’s final message? Right before the Ascension, as Jesus gave his disciples His final blessing, he summed up His entire purpose in this way:
“Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.” – Luke 24:46-48
Repent, believe in the gospel, and then tell others to do the same, for the forgiveness of sins: God will forgive your sins, if forgiveness is what you seek. That is the gospel message.
What will happen to those who fail to repent? The same gospel proclaimed by Jesus was proclaimed by Paul:
“By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” – Romans 2:5-8
Do you see the comparison? On the one hand, eternal life; on the other hand, wrath and fury. You can’t have both. The impenitent will receive nothing but the wrath of God. Yet those who persevere in His love, aided by His grace and loving embrace, will receive eternal life. Similarly, at the Areopagus, to an audience of unbelievers, Paul preached of the importance of repentance and its connection with the final judgment:
“God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now he demands that all people everywhere repent because he has established a day on which he will ‘judge the world with justice’ through a man he has appointed, and he has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:30
As Paul described it, “I preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentance.” Acts 26:20. The word ‘need’ is not used lightly here. We have μετανοειν, repentance, that changing of one’s mind, directly tied with επιστρεφειν επι τον θεον, turning toward God. Paul calls this gospel a “message of light.” (Acts 26:23)
Peter also preached the same gospel:
“Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away.” – Acts 3:19 Later, in Acts 11:18, after Peter gave his Peter’s testimony, repentance was described as the “life-giving” gift of God.
John also preached the same gospel:
“If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.” 1 John 1:9
So, to summarize. John the Baptist prepared the way for the gospel by calling for repentance. The gospel was first announced when Jesus called for repentance. While with His apostles, the gospel he preached was repentance. Before He ascended, he preached repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Peter preached that same gospel. Paul preached that same gospel. John preached that same gospel.
And so now, to you, d taylor, and to the others who have fallen into the grasp and snares of Zane Hodges, I can only say what Paul said: “I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel… As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:6,8)
Stop preaching a different gospel. Repent, and believe, and your sins will be forgiven.
Amen!
I won’t waste time and money to read a book that contradicts God’s word in the Bible. Just like the serpent deceived Eve by making a suggestion, “did God really say…..? Surely you won’t die.” Run, don’t walk away from false teaching!
If all of these negative comments about the Catholic Church are true, than you have proven that Jesus Christ is a liar.
Christ said to Peter (the first Catholic pope) thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and I will be with it till the end of time. Well the Catholic Church is still standing strong and Christ is still with them as He promised. It’s only the propaganda machines that have grown.
It’s just hard for a Catholic to understand that after 15 centuries of the Catholic church growing under Christ guidance a man, Martin Luther gets an idea and starts the first Protestant church. Then John Calvin and now over 30,000 different Protestant churches stand. None of them can agree with each other, they all claim to be bible based, they all interpret themselves and preach different concepts and they were all started by a man. I just don’t believe this is what Christ wanted. 30,000 different men all trying to prove Christ is a lair.
By the way, the definition of the word apostle is to send or be sent. Christ sent Peter on a mission and here the Catholic church stands 2000 years later. Christ was asked if any man cab start a church and Christ replied, “How can he preach if he hasn’t been sent”. Can you name me one Protestant church where the man that started it was sent by Christ an apostle or a Catholic bishop. If you cannot prove they were sent, than that makes that religion bogus and invalid.
Perhaps the real question should be “Are any of the protestant religions Christian?
Dan O’ Leary
Dan,you say that one man,Martin Luther got an idea that started the Protestant movement…”.which tries to prove Christ to be a liar”. That is very much off base,I must say. Martin Luther was not the first to see problems with the direction the Catholic hierarchy was taking the church. He had specific issues he addressed,based on what he read in the Bible; it would help any discussion if you found out what these issues were. Martin Luther was not the first to seek to”reform” church doctrine. Doctrine is basic to church teaching,and should be based on God’s truth revealed in His word. And that’s the truth,I might add. As scripture says,”As you come to him,a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.” 1Peter 2:4-6. There is much Catholics and Protestants do agree on, the things where we disagree are worth discussing, I believe since Paul warned us back in the first century church,to examine the teachings and make sure it is the same gospel the apostles taught….false doctrine sprang up right away,and we need to be vigilant always.
I am a Christian FIRST and a Protestant SECOND. With this being said I was raised believing what I was taught by mere PEOPLE that all Catholics, (too include 90 % of my Dad’s family), were all hell-bound. As I have grown up more physically as well as spiritually, God has messed with my mind so to speak more than just a little bit. He has brought Catholics across my path that are completely in love with Jesus. Prayer warriors that I knew I could call upon in my hour of need to pray with me. Long discussions that I have had with them personally so as to better understand where they are coming from in their beliefs. It has caused me to do much study on Catholicism. I wanted to know more than all the biased info I had heard most of my life. I went to the horse’s mouth, if you will. I am truly saddened by the way we speak death with our mouths over our brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus said that all men would know that we are His disciples because of the love we have for one another! We have to STOP DEVOURING ONE ANOTHER, (which is sin), and walking in pride. We all need to remember where our salvation comes from…JESUS. Outside of Him and without Him we have nothing. Without Him we are as lost as a ball in high weeds. No matter what the title over our church door, in the end it is JESUS CHRIST plus nothing minus nothing that saves us. On this both churches agree. There is a time rapidly approaching winding down to the Second Coming of Christ where we are going to HAVE to join hand in hand with our fellow Christians just in order to survive. Call me crazy, I care not. I can and probably will receive much criticism from both sides. When our life is over we will stand and give an account for our lives in front of Christ Himself. Will He find us faithful? Or will He find a person that was so full of pride and busy criticizing others that they neglected to fulfill the Great Commission? To share the Gospel and to walk in the calling that He’s has placed upon our individual lives? We should be ashamed of ourselves.
Well said! It is human nature of course to be partisan about all things, but the nature of the church — the *catholic* (with a small c) church — is that it is universal. It is for everyone. And while it is a shame that we are separated and fragmented, our differences by and large are pretty insignificant. I think if you took somone from the second century like Justin Martyr or Polycarp or Clement of Alexandria and asked them to evaluate modern Christian Churches, they would all look basically orthodox to them. Most of the big ticket heresies that afflicted the ancient church (e.g., docetism, gnosticism, ditheism, Judaizing, etc.) are basically gone today. We all basically agree on the Nicene Creed, we all accept the same 27 books of the New Testament, we all believe that Jesus was fully God and fully man, we all accept that there is one God in three persons, we all believe Jesus truly suffered and died on the cross and was raised as the first-fruit of the general resurrection of the dead, etc.
Honestly, the issues we disagree about are either more about practice than doctrine (how we pray, what our liturgies look like) or are semantic (does true faith include works, or are works the fruits of faith; is Jesus’s presence in the eucharist physical, spiritual, symbolic, or all of the above?).
If Jesus is the center of your life, and if He inspires you to love God with your whole heart and mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself, and if when you fall short of that, you allow the Holy Spirit to lead you to repentence, then you are part of the same Church as me, whether you consider yourself Roman Catholic (as I do) or not.
I am 52 years old. Born in raised in a Roman Catholic family. Mom studied to become a nun until she met my father. My oldest brother (72 yrs. old) studied at St. Mienrad’s in Indiana to become a priest. He’s married with 2 daughters and 6 grand kids. Jesus the man-child was born of a virgin, but He as God He always was. He is not a created being, He is the Creator! So, He condescends to earth, fully God, full man, and He lives a sinless life – He’s God, so He can’t sin – He then sacrifices Himself and dies an awful, painful death on the cross, but all the while He suffers spiritually as He takes on all the sins of the world!! He died for us while we were still sinners!! Hallelujah!! He died, rose again on the third day – conquered death – and after 40 days ascended into heaven where He sits at the right hand of the Father!! O.K., all that to say this: in the Gospel According to John, Jesus tells us, “for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.” In the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 16, verses 30-31, states : And brought them out, and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” That is the good news, the gospel of Jesus Christ!! Anything added to that wonderful gift is a lie from Satan himself. The gift of God is eternal life through His Son, Jesus Christ!!
Amen Timothy!!
I am not Catholic now ( was for 45 yrs). I never considered myself a Christian until I left Catholicism and started reading the Bible and came to know Jesus as my Lord and Savior.
I don’t really understand this kind of sentiment. What kind of real Catholic doesn’t read their bible or know Jesus as their Lord and Savior? It doesn’t sound to me like you were ever really Catholic — perhaps in name only, perhaps you went through the motions, but it doesn’t sound like your heart was ever in it. I’m glad you found Jesus, even if you had to leave His church to find Him.
The question then becomes, What kind of real Catholic judges who a real Catholic is, when his church is the judge of that. And as faith is shown by what it does, (Ja. 2:18) and Rome routinely treats even proabortion. prosodomite public figures as members in life and in death, then it manifests its understanding of herself (and canon law, which seems to forbid ecclesiastical funeral to notorious public sinners. Perhaps because it is no longer a scandal then such is allowed.
And if you eliminate those who do not regularly read their Bibles as the poster spoke of, then you would have a very small church, as Catholics comes in almost last in personal Bible reading according to surveys. Nor do most go to Mass regularly, by which they may hear some of the Bible.
In any case, the reason my RCs cannot be considered Christian is because their church teaches a false gospel, by which one becomes good enough to be with God via a ritual, and thus must usually end their salvation process by once against becoming good enough to be with God.
In contrast, in Scripture one has both is hear purified by faith, (Acts 15:7-9) and is declared righteous on Christ’s account. As the only kind of faith that is counted for righteousness is one that confessed the Lord Jesus in word and deed, so salvation is promised to those who, call, confess, (Rm. 10:8-13) are baptized, (Mk. 16:16) these being synonymous with believing, as works manifest and justify one as being a believer.
While a RC of simple pious humble faith can be saved, as can Prots (multitudes of such are also lost), the RC system works contrary to that, becoming as the gates of Hell for the majority, at least in the West.
In addition, the NT in Scripture manifestly did not holds to the Roman papacy; the Cath Eucharist ; ensured magisterial infallibility; praying to created beings in Heaven; the priesthood ; Cath Mariolatry ; clerical celibacy; purgatory ; hindering personal Bible reading; a separate class of believers called “saints, a hierarchical order of priests, bishops, Cardinals, etc., with ostentatious religious dress and titles; or teaching that the deity Muslims worship.
**Answers between the ** marks.**
“The question then becomes, What kind of real Catholic judges who a real Catholic is, when his church is the judge of that.”
**A “Catholic” may refer to a member of any of the rites of the Catholic Church, such as the Roman rite or the Byzantine rite. Membership begins at baptism, or in the case of someone who is already baptized in another faith tradition, at a profession of faith, usually accompanying the sacrament of Confirmation and Eucharist. Membership reflects not so much that of an organization, but of a kingdom, the family of God.**
“And as faith is shown by what it does, (Ja. 2:18) and Rome routinely treats even proabortion. prosodomite public figures as members in life and in death, then it manifests its understanding of herself (and canon law, which seems to forbid ecclesiastical funeral to notorious public sinners. Perhaps because it is no longer a scandal then such is allowed.”
**Canon law is a juridical process for governing the day to day life of the church. Canon law can change according to the needs of the life of the church. This is different than doctrine, which is unchangeable because it reflects the Deposit of Faith, or that truth revealed by God to us.**
“And if you eliminate those who do not regularly read their Bibles as the poster spoke of, then you would have a very small church, as Catholics comes in almost last in personal Bible reading according to surveys. Nor do most go to Mass regularly, by which they may hear some of the Bible.”
**Catholics and non-Catholics should read the Bible more than they do, but we are not saved by “daily Bible reading”. An atheist may read the Bible every day. If we go to Jesus after our death and say “I should be saved because I read my Bible every day” we would be in trouble. Any Catholic would plainly agree with that.**
“In any case, the reason my RCs cannot be considered Christian is because their church teaches a false gospel, by which one becomes good enough to be with God via a ritual, and thus must usually end their salvation process by once against becoming good enough to be with God.”
**If the Catholic Church taught a Gospel that “when one becomes good enough to be with God by a ritual, and thus must usually end their salvation process by once against becoming good enough to be with God” it would be teaching a false Gospel. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.**
“While a RC of simple pious humble faith can be saved, as can Prots (multitudes of such are also lost), the RC system works contrary to that, becoming as the gates of Hell for the majority, at least in the West.”
**I understand your opinion. It is possible that many people who are Catholic may end up in hell. I hope not. However, there is no such thing as a “RC system works” except in the mind of those who are taught that by anti-Catholics. The Catholic Church certainly does not teach a system of works.**
“In addition, the NT in Scripture manifestly did not holds to the Roman papacy; the Cath Eucharist ; ensured magisterial infallibility; praying to created beings in Heaven; the priesthood ; Cath Mariolatry ; clerical celibacy; purgatory ; hindering personal Bible reading; a separate class of believers called “saints, a hierarchical order of priests, bishops, Cardinals, etc., with ostentatious religious dress and titles; or teaching that the deity Muslims worship.”
That’s an awful lot of anti-Catholic baggage. The thing is, we’ve heard it before. Catholics have taken the time to respond to each claim and each misrepresentation of what we believe and profess. What someone who makes those claims ends up sounding like, to anyone that is not an anti-Catholic is something like this: “Buddhist’s teach false things like the worship of Allah.” Everyone knows it is not true, but the person usually isn’t willing to allow the faith they are attacking to speak for itself. I’m sure you are more reasonable than that though.
RC are more into traditions then reading anything that the new testament says. If nondenominational quotes the bible right away they say we are judging. I don’t get it, all Christian are to teach the word of the Bible they don’t worry about where they are going for a beer…
I am more interested in how people view their relationship with Jesus Christ as He speaks of Himself in the Bible.
If people can’t get that straight or commit to that understanding, then no church (Catholic or Protestant), tradition, or theological argument will ever find its importance in and to Him.
Follow His Truth. Without Christ, there is no true church. He is the Church.
You can’t defend something that’s rotten to the core. The sex abuse scandal, the selling of indulgences, the use of ritualistic prayer, the vast wealth of the church, the crusades, ect.
catholics stopped being christians when they stopped following jesus and instead started following institutional dogma and wealth.
Hi Charles,
I am a Catholic and I follow Jesus.
In Him, Adam Janke
Charles, you seem to have so much hate and angst for Catholic Christians. Are you in pain? Jesus heals lives, just invite Him into your heart. Your Catholic brothers and sisters in Christian are praying for you.
Pax Christi tecum!
*in Christ. (Weird autocorrect, my phone doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge Christ….)
Sorry for not seeing this sooner admin.
A “Catholic” may refer to a member of any of the rites of the Catholic Church
You are missing the contextual (see being responded to) point, which was “real Catholic” vs. “in name only,”
Canon law can change according to the needs of the life of the church. This is different than doctrine,
That is a superficial understanding of teaching, as doctrine is effectual as it is rightly understood and applied, and which canon law helps provide, as do non-infallible and even non-official teaching of popes and prelates.
Unless the one duty of the laity is to follow the Pastors like a docile flock, (VEHEMENTER NOS) means rendering implicit assent to whatever Rome teaches on whatever level, then RCs must discern what magisterial level a teaching falls under in order to know what degree of assent is required. Yet just what is infallible and even these teachings, which constitute a minority, as well other official teachings can be subject to various degrees of interpretation and leave much unanswered, and you cannot expect timely official answers from the Vatican. Thus retreating into “official doctrine does not work.
In times past, it was infallibly(?) taught that unconverted “Jews and heretics and schismatics…will depart into everlasting fire” as well as those who have not “remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church,”(Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence) and mandated the extermination of heretics from RC countries. But then V2 interprets this as apparently broadly affirming baptized Prots as brethren, resulting different interpretations of this (such as whether former RCs as myself can be saved without returning).
And as one poster wryly stated,
he last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on “areas of legitimate disagreement,” the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn’t handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan, http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html
Thus the people look to how the preachers of doctrine understand what is “officially” taught, from papal statements to the local prelates. and as said, what you really believe is manifest by what you do. When a pope sends a gracious letter to a manifestly impenitent proabortion, prosodomite pol, thanking him for his prayers but giving no manifest rebuke, and give him an church funeral, and infer he will enter glory thru the merits of the church, then like RCs see this as affirming they are members who will join him.
Catholics and non-Catholics should read the Bible more than they do, but we are not saved by “daily Bible reading”
But works evidence faith, and again, you are missing the point, which was evidence of being a real believer.
If the Catholic Church taught a Gospel that “when one becomes good enough to be with God by a ritual, and thus must usually end their salvation process by once against becoming good enough to be with God” it would be teaching a false Gospel
Thank you for the sad confirmation, as in fact RCs believe that the act of baptism (with proper intent) renders one good enough to be with God at that point, but most must become good enough (and atone for sins) in “purgatory” commencing at death in order to enter glory, contrary to Scripture. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff’; 1Thess. 4:17)
For by the close of the fourth century it was taught “a place of purgation..from which when purified they “were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord”. For ” they were “not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness”. – http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Thus Kreeft states,
“…we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults.” Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224
And thus we have RCs quoting Mt. 5:48 and telling us we must be actually perfect to be with God.
there is no such thing as a “RC system works”
Obviously there is, and Trent at least infers that in stating that the one who is “justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God” merits “the attainment of eternal life itself” and such is accounted to have “fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life.” (Trent, canon 32, Chapter XVI)
Works of faith justify that one is a believer and fit to be rewarded, but are not actually the basis for obtaining the gift of eternal life.
That’s an awful lot of anti-Catholic baggage. The thing is, we’ve heard it before. Catholics have taken the time to respond to each claim and each misrepresentation of what we believe and profess.
Rather, having debated RCs for years by the grace of the merciful God, they can only misrepresent or ignore Scripture in seeking to support their traditions of men. But if you want to try let me know.
“Buddhist’s teach false things like the worship of Allah.”
No, it is V2 which affirms (and it does despite trying to spin it) that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, which is blasphemous.
“Thank you for the sad confirmation, as in fact RCs believe that the act of baptism (with proper intent) renders one good enough to be with God at that point, but most must become good enough (and atone for sins) in “purgatory” commencing at death in order to enter glory, contrary to Scripture. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff’; 1Thess. 4:17)”
Let’s look at what the Catholic Church teaches:
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.” The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.”
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.”
So, again, there is no “RC system of works”. To call baptism a “work of man that merits eternal life” seriously confuses the nature of the Sacraments. (1 Peter 3:21)
———–
“For by the close of the fourth century it was taught “a place of purgation..from which when purified they “were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord”. For ” they were “not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness”. – http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Thus Kreeft states,
“…we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults.” Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224
And thus we have RCs quoting Mt. 5:48 and telling us we must be actually perfect to be with God.”
There is no sin in heaven, so we will in fact, reach the fulfillment of who we are meant to be in heaven. Purgatory is not for the forgiveness of sins, but for the purification of the soul that dies in a state of grace that is still attached to sin.
———-
“No, it is V2 which affirms (and it does despite trying to spin it) that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, which is blasphemous.”
This article addresses the topic: http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
Matthew 16:13-19
[13] When Jesus came to the neighborhood of Caesarea Phillipi, he asked his disciples this question: ” Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” [14] They replied, “Some say John the Baptizer, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” [15] “And you,” he said to them, “who do you say that I am?”
[16] “You are the Messiah,” Simon answered, “the Son of the living God!” [17] Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of Jonah! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my Heavenly Father. [18] I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock’ (Peter in English), and on this rock I shall build my church, and the forces of hell shall never prevail against it.
[19] I will entrust to you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
What Jesus told Simon, whom he renamed ‘Rock’ (Peter in English), is that he is the first Pope, he will obtain his orders directly from God, and communicate it to us. He renamed Simon, which is a papal tradition to this day. It only makes sense for there to be a pope, because Jesus said in Matthew 28:20- “And remember that I am always with you until the end of time.”
The pope is Gods way of staying with us here on earth while being in heaven. He tells the pope what should be done, and the pope tells us in turn. I hope that explains the presence of the papacy and why it is here. I will pray that you will see this and be filled with understanding of Catholicism. May God give you strength and knowledge.
Obviously all religion is man made and based on myths and superstitions passed down over 1000’s of years. The “Jesus story” with a virgin birth, death, raised after 3 days has been told 6 times by different cultures beginning with the Egyptians in 3000 BC…….
Mark, that question is answered here: http://www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/was-the-virgin-birth-of-jesus-grounded-in-paganism
There is something fundamentally fraud in protestant thinking and historical rendering of their christian faith. For instance when they claim that Only the Bible is the standard of Christian living, I wonder what part of the Bible. The Bible as we have it does not teach homogeneously. For instance in the OT. Deuteronomy 22 and 24, the teaching on Marriage and Divorce runs contrary to the new Teaching of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Perhaps, I have come to equate rabid anti catholic protestants with the label “evangelical” to emphasize the sad fact that for them the Bible is some extracts from the Gospels all the letters of Paul, and the Book of Revelation. At least Pope Francis, May God Help him, will tone down the anti Catholic vitriol of the ol’ Kind of protestants. I read a book by Thomas Merton:”The seven storey Mountain” and I came to understand the bigotry and fratricidal relationship that lay between people who were once once. Sadly to note, the violence and wars, make Satan appear stronger and powerful than God, Almighty!!
Your not saved by faith alone. You are saved by faith and works. Ask James Jesus brother not the false prophet Saul
Who doesn’t think Catholics are Christians? All the Protestants I know acknowledge this. Also, who says no I’m Catholic? I always say “yeah, Catholic”.
Actually No.. Saying Catholic Christian is redundant. Catholics are the ONLY Christians, protestants by following heresys are not to be rewarded with that title. Christ’s church is Catholic and holds true to her teachings and sacraments, because ONLY she and her leaders were given Authority by God.
I was raised Catholic but hardly attended Mass but my mom taught me to love God above all things. We went to different church denominations because they would invite my mom. But I chose to continue to be of the Catholic faith. I saw people act like they were not Christian but I saw it in all faiths. I would here my protestants friends talk so bad about catholics and only to find out they too were doing the same thing. But as I got older I realized no church is perfect. Jesus came to save the imperfect not the perfect. My mom always taught us to always put ourselves in a other persons shoes. I am a Catholic Christian. But I always searched and ask God to make me a better person and to help me to know the truth. I was hearing so much negative from my protestant friends about the Catholic faith that I began to doubt my own faith. But I went one day to the Baptist Church and my friend made a remark about me in prayer of praying for those who didn’t know Jesus. It sadden me so much of how could she think ll this time that I didn’t know Jesus. So I stopped going and a few moths later I went on a retreat. Where I know in my heart a heard . A beautiful voice that said I neverr told you to leave the Catholic Church. I cried so uncontrollable. So, I too had a born again experience, but it was at a Catholic retreat. This made me change my ways and now I am a better Christian within the Catholic Church. I have learned not to argue about religion because I believe in my heart that if you truly truly love God then our remarks to others will show if we are true Christians. Because when you have had a true relationship with Jesus then we can no longer act like we do. I don’t care what faith you are. I come from a small town everyone knows everyone. I know Catholic like I know Baptist and Church of Christ and so on who all do things outside their church that is wrong on the other 6 days of the week. It is our human nature. We must be willing to at least try to understand instead of just teaching others what we ourselves do not know to be true.God bless.
While I don’t agree with the practices of Catholicism, I’m starting to feel that it’s wrong to say that Catholics aren’t Christians.
He is not Paul the apostle he is Saul the Pharisee a false prophet. The gospel of grace is a fraud. You are not saved by alone. The law is not an option. Did you not read the sermon on the mount? Yeshua did not do away with or chane the law. You are all cursed the eternal flames prepared for the devil and his angels for worshipping a false prophet.
So you still follow Leviticus?
I follow love my neighbor as myself the second greatest commandment Including my gay and undocumented immigrants neighbors. I live by the golden rule do unto others as you would have done unto you for this is the law and the prophets. Don’t judge for you will be judged. Too bad most Christians don’t. Why do Christians quote Leviticus when it suits their agenda? Christians love to cherry pick the bible.
The problem is that I have school shirt that have polyester.
Also I am interested that you use “undocumented” instead illegal.
Which is an abomination and adulterers are to be stoned to death. So why the hypocrisy about gays? As for immigrants I don’t believe Jesus would call any of Gods children illegal or deport them. So I won’t either.
Fair point
Are you talking about the mixed fabrics?
Yes mixed fabrics. I believe in loving all my neighbors as myself including my gay and undocumented immigrants neighbors. I have a clear conscience. These people broke the law true. But why? For malice or desperation? If for desperation like stealing a loaf of bread because you or your child is hungry than Jesus would tell us to show mercy and forgive. So that is what I will do. These religious freedom bills are clearly discrimination. Discrimination is one of the worst forms of hate. No true Christian would hate anyone especially when Jesus said love your enemy and pray for them. So if you really think two consenting adults who are in love with each other are committing a horrible sin then you should just pray for them and that is it. I pray for people all the time.
So I am guessing you are not a fan of Jack T. Chick.
I have faith in God and am a follower of Yeshua aka Jesus because he is the way truth life. I don’t really care what anyone else has to say. Everyone else are people with opinions no better or worse than my own. I don’t recognize anyone’s authority but God. I do obey civil law because without it you have chaos. I know God wrote his laws in my heart so I already know the right thing to do and don’t need anyone to tell me. I know I am to love my neighbor as myself and do unto others as I do unto myself. I don’t make any distinction about my neighbor by race gender or sexual orientation. We are all children of God and therefore equal. I believe both the father and son are all loving. They will judge all of us but be fair. What we do for the least of thee is most important.
Answer me this: our we obligated to follow the laws of the Torah (aka the first five books of the Old Testament), including no eating foods like pork, no wearing mixed fabric, etc?
I believe Yeshua aka Jesus summarized Gods laws with the two greatest commandments and the golden rule.
Love God with all your heart mind body and soul
Love your neighbor as yourself
Do unto others as you would do unto yourself this is the law and prophets.
Folks here is the bottom line:
There are hypocrites on BOTH sides… people claiming to follow Jesus Christ but not truly knowing Him and sharing a personal relationship with Him. Then we have the backsliders…. but Jesus is there to forgive and bring us back to Him wether in the Catholic or another Christian denominational church. Let us all let our light shine, not judge because times are desparate… Not to be fiddling with these notions and getting easily offended let us move on and focus on what is important.
Why would Catholics even care about being “taken seriously by Protestants”? I would have though it was moreso the other way around i.e. the breakaway groups needing to gain credence.
Christianus mihi nomen est, catholicus vero cognomen (“My name is Christian, my surname is Catholic.”)
You seem to want to omit the worship of the mary,or Madonn , prayers to the saints, and the authority of a priest forgive sins, and be called father, and equating the pope to GOD! It is all idolitry, by the bible, “Christian Bible”
I’m not defending catholism. I don’t profess any religion. I’m have faith in God and am a follower of Yeshua aka Jesus. No religion Catholic or Protestant have it right.
It’s a very simple thing. The only way to the FATHER is through “JESUS CHRIST”. Not according to the hiarchy of the vatican!
No argument there. But Paul is not the way to the father either. I only follow Yeshua and worship God. The reason I don’t go to church is because you are all wrong. I worship on my own.
When you kneel before any similitude of a persn, animal, or any thing under heaven, you are in fact worshiping statues, better known as idols.
I only worship God and follow Yeshua. Only pray in secret with the Lord’s Prayer as Yeshua commands.
That’s nonsense. When a knight kneels before their king, are they worshiping their king? If someone kneels before an American flag, is that worship? Worship is an act of religious devotion directed toward a deity. Pagans, who believed that their idols stood semiotically for deities, were engaging in worship in their idolatry. A Christian who kneels before a cross is not worshiping the cross, and to suggest otherwise is to put your own unreasonableness on display.
We are only to worship God and follow Yeshua.
I agree. Worshiping God in the presence of a cross, or a Bible, or an altar, or whatever, is still worshiping God.
Yeshua said go into your room close the door and pray in secret with only the Lord’s Prayer for God knows what you want before you do. That is exactly how I pray.
Protestants like their faith easy to understand and their insults against catholics to be based in old wives tales and ghost stories. Step away from the still Jethro and stop handling snakes long enough to read a book.
EDDO:
Where did you get the information that 65 million people were murdered by Catholics in the past 1500 years? Did you know that the entire population of Europe in the 1500 was only 90 million for all of Europe? The closest cause of the 65 million deaths you speak of could be the bubonic plague that occurred during that period of time. Spain and Portugal’s total population during the period of the Spanish Inquisition was only 7 million. Do the research. Also, you’ll have distinguish between the secular (The King aka Government) or the Church. The church did not have an army or a police force
100 million native Americans were killed by Spanish conquistidors for God, Gold, and Glory.
No, they were killed by the diseases brought by the Spanish, such as smallpox. It isn’t murder/genocide/whatever to inadvertently spread a disease. For example: the Black Death, one of the worst plagues in human history and claimed over 60% of Europe’s population, was spread by merchant ships visiting Europe. The method of viral transmission is virtually the same, yet we do not call the Black Death a genocide. Neither do we call other plagues in history genocides, as diseases simply spread to those who are weaker to them. Diseases, as well as resistance and immunity to them, were not well understood then, if at all. As a matter of fact, many of the Spanish built missions with the express purpose of converting the Native Americans to Catholicism, through peaceful and consensual means. The Natives that WERE directly killed by the Spanish were empires (the Aztecs the Mayans, etc.) that were despised by the tribes around them, so it was more like a war between natives that the Spanish simply supported. Any who died after helping the Spanish died due to disease, disease to which they had never been exposed to before, and therefore had no resistance to, let alone immunity.
If I stood in front of a statue of Buddha and said Hail Buddha full of grace hallow be thy name am I worshiping Buddha?? Jesus said its not which goes in the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out. Fish on Fridays?? Hail Mary’s?? Read the Bible, the truth will set you free. I confess my sins to no man, only Jesus can forgive your sins. Our works are like filthy rags to God, no matter of good deeds will make it go away.
amen Brother
Hi Blair, you said “If I stood in front of a statue of Buddha and said Hail Buddha full of grace hallow be thy name am I worshiping Buddha??” When the angel Gabriel stood before the Blessed Virgin and said “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” in Luke 1:28 the angel was not worshiping Mary. Neither do Christians when they fulfill the verse “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed” in Luke 1:48.
You also said: “Jesus said its not which goes in the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out. Fish on Fridays?? Hail Mary’s?? Read the Bible, the truth will set you free. I confess my sins to no man, only Jesus can forgive your sins. Our works are like filthy rags to God, no matter of good deeds will make it go away.”
The Bible says “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.” (James 5:16) It also says ” If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (John 20:23).
What about the act of eating fish on Friday??? What’s your answer for this??? Gabriel was not in front of a statue and praying. I can forgive a sin against me, but that sin is still accountable to God, a man forgiving sins does not clear your record. The Bible says, all have sinned and fell short. When I read this I take the word ALL means everyone. Can I ask what your thoughts are when the Pope made a speech and used the story where Jesus stayed behind at the temple and worried his parents and Jesus must have begged for forgiveness from his mother, this is pure blasphemy. To indicate that Jesus had to beg for forgiveness??? If that is the case than the whole point of the Cross was in vain. For he died for all our sins as the perfect lamb of God. Your defensiveness is an indication of your conviction. Every knee will bow. I talk to many Catholics and majority don’t even know most scripture. Religion is man seeking God, Christianity is God seeking man. What side are you on??? The Catholic church has offended and harmed so many and is a huge factor for non believers from reaching out to God. I have read most of the comments on this site and it seems you stick to only a few verses to prove your point and there are so many verses being said that rebuke your stance, you just resort back to the same scripture. Open your heart to the truth, and it will be revealed.
In the beginning we have to remember that the word Christian was a derogatory term used by nonbelievers to describe followers of the Way, this could be why early Catholics shunned the word, and it may have continued in some form. Words meanings constantly change especially in this fast and ever changing society.
Lets look at the facts about todays world. The top 4 countries with the largest population of Catholics……#1 Brazil…corrupt politicians, gang rapes, slums, riots in the streets. #2 Mexico…mass murders, drug cartels, missing children, and everyone knows the corruption and thievery. #3 Philippines….every 50 minutes a women is raped, new leader is a psychopath, child sex capital. #4 Good old USA, well what can I say about corruption and sex industry and drugs. If these countries are full of God fearing people, why do they also represent the countries with most corruption, sex industries and drugs???? Oh that’s right the Vatican likes sex, especially with children. I would be ashamed to call myself a Catholic in todays world. God Bless the good Christians who are bad Catholics in the ROMAN catholic church. Wake up and find the real Jesus, he is waiting to receive you.
I am protestant and I believe that Catholics are christian just as any other man who professes their faith in thirst along and lives only for him but what really grinds my gears is when the term catholic means universal and in the Bible it never says the Catholic with a capital C, its catholic. The original church was indeed an orthodox church but without a name of roman catholic church or eastern catholic church so you can. No one not even the Pope is greater or holds any position over me, he is just like anyone in this world who is sinful and needs god. we are all called saints too if we believe in one true god.
Hi James, it may be that if you are not Catholic that the pope has no authority over you. It is our free decision to be obedient. Just as the Bible says “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Hebrews 13:17)
You are also right that the word Catholic means “universal” – Jesus established one church that is both universal and apostolic. It is both visible, and invisible. Jesus established the church and wants us to belong to the church for the sake of our salvation. The Catholic Church traces its lineage back to St. Peter who laid his hands on his successor, and so on and so forth down the line to Pope Francis. What’s keeping you from becoming Catholic?
I was brought up in Church of England denomination – but just call myself a Christian, which I am. I have some relatives family and friends who are Roman Catholics and their beliefs are not so different, though we all worship in our own way. To be really honest though, when I attend a Roman Catholic church (eg – for Christenings, marriages, etc) I quite like to see the nice statues such as Mary, or Mary with baby Jesus, but I really do find it very upsetting to see a statue of Jesus actually suffering hanging on the cross. I prefer just to see an empty cross which is enough to remind us that he had suffered there but then……… etc…. the story which as Christians we all believe.
Regarding the recommendation on how to introduce yourself as a “Catholic Christian”,
I’m a Christian apologist and having thought long and hard on this and I prefer to use, “yes I’m a Christian, I’m Catholic!” This better leads into additional questions and dialog if at all possible.
Announcing yourself as a “Catholic Christian” (which could be understood by some as short and to the point) is actually akin to stating your Christian twice and clarifying as such does a disservice to your own apostolic faith.
Always remember the Catholic Church (that is our official name, not Roman Catholic or RCC) is in fact the primitive Christianity, all Protestant denominations are attempting (without knowing it) to get back to. Catholicism is not and has never been merely one more denomination hence it’s clear division from the reformation (separatists) communities of Protestantism.
The Idea of ‘allow-ability’ of denomination-hood was a protesting creation for reasons of separation survival. The key to all is understanding that one cannot be a reformer once you separate from that which you allegedly seek to reform nor can you be a remnant if you are not a remainder.
Love your Protestant brethren but never buy into the idea that Catholicism is merely one more denomination of Christianity.
peace of Christ,
TeachingEvangelicals
I am so sick and tired of protestants uneducational misunderstanding of our catholic faith…….. so in order for we catholics ought to do is defend our faith and help them to understand what our church stands for by teaching them our unheretical theology……………and what the bible really teaches founded by our guide who is the Holy Spirit….. God loves holy people to stand up for the truth and be a good example to the misinformed which is one act of mercy for them……
I’m sorry, but what exactly is the “false charge” and how can the statement “The Catholic Church has absorbed all kinds of non-apostolic traditions and as such is no longer Christian” be considered ‘propaganda’?
Exactly which “non-apostolic” traditions Ken? And btw, by what authority does one have, when separating from Christ’s Church to create his/her own, as the multitude under the Protestant umbrella have done?
for most believers in Christ who build upon the “for by grace you are saved” verses in the Apostle Paul’s letter to the believers in Ephesus, this is not as much about one’s religious affiliation but whether good works are part of one’s way of having a right standing with God. Reformers taught that good works motivated by love always and inevitably result from having Christ within. Christians who hear anyone, whether a Roman Catholic or a fellow Protestant, place confidence in human effort as a means of grace, this arouses concern, and would cause some to doubt a profession of faith in the Lord Jesus.
Just say you’re Christian.
Look, there are a whole crop of loud mouth Protestants on the internet but There are just as many uneducated elitists on the Catholic side.
Nothing is ever gonna change until this fantasy that they’re the real true church that Jesus started. Do you think that Jesus would or would not turn the temple tables over?
The RCC is a textbook case of a church that’s Lampstand had been constantly threatened to be removed. One look at the churches of Revelation can display to you just how fruitless and corrupt they are in comparison to those churches. You must see it. The entire world sees not a light
Look, I know it’s depressing. It’s shocking and can lead to the states of greif– but denial is poison. Why would God allow error. We all question this. A Pope dug up another dead Pope and put him on trial for crying out loud. The lack of faith was so monumental that in trying to protect itself it made deals and set up rules that ensured that up umpteen millions flowed into their bank account. Sanctioned murder…all of us would probably be dead , burned alive if we lived in another era.
So please….just stop. It’s embarrassing.
The crumbling of ones bias…It reminds me of learning Genesis must be figurative. It hit me hard but the simplicity of Jesus Christ is what the Holy Spirit has put into my heart.
Acts 15
And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts by faith.
Acts 11
So if God gave them the same gift as He gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to hinder the work of God
I’m not a RCC hater either. I went to Catholic school .My Dad’s RC, I don’t think they’re the Antichrist etc– as many Protestants do. But if you were in the 1st century church and went to sleep for 2000 years and we’re asked, if given no choice but to pick who you believed were the True apostolic Church after witnessing their Works, their pomp, wealth, etc…… Would it matter what meaningless claims were presented to define them as carrying some illusory mantle handed off like batons in the 400 Meter relay?
The outright twisting of scriptures about Peter like we’re all fools incapable of comprehension. It’s not gonna all come crashing down if this tightly woven matrix is not what you thought. The Protestants are also not a shining beacon of absolute truth free from the stains of legalism and
Self-righteousness. I’m sorry but, we are not separated brethren. We are in the Church of God and we all are Christian who have the Holy Spirit and proclaiming we are not is something Pharisees would have is believe.
Take it easy
Just one person’s opinion here. I’m a Catholic that had exposure to Evangelical Christianity as a young adult. My Catholicism today has been molded and shaped by this experience. Since I was old enough to understand faith, I have NEVER thought that Catholics are anything but Christians. I didn’t know very much about other denominations, but also considered them Christians. I believe we all come from a common origin, stemming from the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the formation of the church as described in the New Testament. This is Christianity, this is the church that Jesus founded. Through the years, that one church has become divided and fractured by the acts and disagreements of men. But, we all stem from that one church and can trace our way back to it. From what I have seen, Catholics lose fellowship with the Christian church through several ways: first, though smugness and arrogance. Tell anyone “yes, you believe in Jesus, but you’re not part of the one true church” and you are not likely to win any friends. Likewise, start saying that they are not in full communion with the church and are saved only though the auspices of the Catholic church are conversation stoppers. We differentiate ourselves with an air of superiority. We need to see this. Yes, there are a whole host of “John Chicks” out there that want to equate every practice of the Catholic faith with idolatry. We see that very clearly, and blame, and feel sorry for ourselves. But, let’s also see what we are doing that creates the divide. It is a two way street. We have so much more in common, largely because we came from the same place. There have been reforms in the Catholic church that have done away with a lot of the abuses that Luther cited. We’ve even agreed on the initial dividing point: salvation through faith. We need to focus on the huge body of commonality. Extreme people on both sides will always exist, but a large portion of us can agree to meet in the middle.
Hey will save you all from some overly overdose explanations and spell it out. Most protestants are simpletons. End of story. Most muslims too. Im not Catholic, not even religious. Do you, you’re one of the best faiths that have the earth. You dont need the self validation, just be
Well, we can tell that you’re not “religious”. Calling others “racca”!
If you indeed identify with or call yourself a Christian than it is simply because you follow in the footsteps of the living God made flesh, having died for your transgressions then arose from the dead to proclaim His rightful place as Lord of Lords and left those who choose to believe in Him with a very clear road map on how to lead a fruitful life. The first to follow Christ Jesus never labeled themselves Christians but were referred to as such by others. I am not catholic nor do I “protest” anything and think it is ridiculous that bold believers were labeled as such simply because they desired to read scripture for themselves as was every living soul’s right. The papal got pretty ticked when that happened because all was exposed for the world to see. The masses discovered they had been mislead into participating in idol worship, sorcery, convinced that buying their loved ones out of prolonged suffering in some fictitious place called purgatory, praying to dead saints and Mary (who is also dead) and the worst, confessing your sins to a man in a box, believing God, through him can absolve you after some novelty penance such repetitive ritualistic chants; all the above blasphemies does God, in His scriptures clearly abhors and forbids or the act is not in His Word at all. So many glaring red flags yet a billion or so of you will still defend it. Only Christ Jesus can remove the blinders but you have to truly believe in Him first, before your parents, before generations of tradition and certainly before it’s too late. Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Hallelujah!
We the believers are the church.. Religion is man made. It’s either ur saved or ur not.. Jesus said that religion would cause conflict.. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church
Jesus is coming back soon and all this bickering won’t even matter… All that matters is that ur saved and ready to meet the one who formed u in the womb and called u by name. Wrote all the days of ur life in a book before the foundations of the world. The Everlasting Father, The king of Kings, The great I Am. Jesus.!! I come quickly!!! Amen!!! Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Oh my gosh, people, get a grip. I lost interest and increased frustration after the first two comments. The Catholic (“universal is, BTW, is the definition of “catholic” ) Church isn’t some strange cultic religion. It is one that honors our Lord’s Judaic foundation, and carries His message forward. It honors both Judaic and Christian messages, it honors what Jesus did on the cross, it pulls all truths together in a cohesive bond and desires above all else to continue the message of Christ Risen and everything to help lead us from Jesus to make our lives strive to this very mission. As St Francis of Assisi said, “preach the message of Christ Risen. And if you must, use words.” Stop chopping up a salad of verbiage. The Catholic faith tries to shepherd a million languages, a million disciples…and if you read all the letters Paul sends out to all these different cities, he sees the need to try and dismiss falsehoods and keep the message pure. You don’t think this is a crazy task at hand? This faith has been since Jesus’ challenge to Peter: “You are my rock. On you I’ll build my Church.” Peter realized it. He took the task. Every Pope was given it. Some were corrupt. That’s man’s fault, not God’s son. But thankfully the Holy Spirit keeps setting our navigation back to the Son. Say what you will, all corruption aside, God still desires us to follow His Son and keeps pushing us to that. God will win, regardless. Jesus will come back, regardless what you try to shift, or admonish, or adjust. This Catholic faith is, at it’s core, faithful to bring that hope. Always, that hope.
Jesus of Nazareth did not founded any church — none! He came to deliver a message. You may argue that Peter was that foundation yet I also believe that to be wrong.
I agree with everything else in the article.
Jesus didnt found a church? So he lied when he said ‘upon this rock I will build my Church?’ Thank heavens for the great prophet ESP!
The fact is that distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.
Ah. But so much of Catholicism originated after Rome began conquering Europe. Even the ideology of the Trinity – a strictly European pagan idea – only came to be after that point. Regardless why would you pray to someone (Mary etc.) To intercede with you with the Christ which claims He is the ONLY to intercede? A bit of an insult to both the Son because of what he is and the Mother because of what She bore. The hypocrisy is monumental and yet the majority are simply blind to it. This post won’t change anyone’s mind, but it’s still the truth.
The word “Christian” come from the word “Christ.” A Christian would therefore be someone who follows the teachings of Christ and is in the Christian religion. The word “Catholic” means “universal” and is supposed to mean that the Church is “universal.” The problem is that what many people call “Christian” and “Catholic” did not originate with Christ or the teachings of the Apostles in the New Testament. Rather than use arguments over different liturgies or teachings of councils of Catholic bishops or Protestants, what we can do is just check the Scripture to determine whether Catholicism is indeed “Christian.” One of the most significant and central teachings of the Catholic Church can serve as the litmus test. The Roman Catholic Church (and even some mainstream Protestant churches) teach that Jesus Christ is literally (or physically) sacrificed every time that the Catholic priest celebrates mass. If the Catholic Church is Christian than its teaching about the priest celebrating mass is correct. On the other hand, if Jesus Christ’s body was sacrificed once and for all, and that sacrifices daily by priests cannot take away sins, then the Catholic Church is perpetuating blasphemy (or a lie). The Bible teaches us that Christ’s sacrifice was completed, is not to be repeated, and that sacrifices conducted daily cannot take away sins. (Hebrews 9:25-26, Hebrews 10:10-14.) In the New Testament passages in Hebrews addressing this, the God-inspired writer of this is comparing the old covenant sacrifices with the new covenant sacrifice which was completed by Christ once and for all. No apostles in the New Testament who ate the Passover meal and celebrated Jesus as the (new) Passover lamb ever believed that they were literally or physically sacrificing and eating Jesus’ body or drinking his real blood. The New Testament is clear: drinking blood was forbidden as it was in the Old Testament. (Acts 15:20,29) While instructing the church at Corinth, Paul clearly tells the church to be mindful of how they drink of the cup and eat the bread. Never does he say “body” because he and the church knew that Christ’s body was in heaven and that Jesus, the Bread of Life, was symbolically being commemorated by eating the bread at the communion table. (1st Corinthians 11:26-27.) Any church, Protestant or Catholic which teaches that a wafer or other form of bread becomes Jesus’ physical body in a transubstantial or consubstantial manner is not practicing, promoting, or following biblical Christianity, but is promoting a lie, and is not Christian.
@Pastor Hunter,
Hi! Thank you for your post. Unfortunately, there are a few mistakes in it.
First:
An important observation was missed.
The author of this article noted that the word “Catholic” was in use by the end of the first century to describe the same Church that Jesus established. That’s the Apostolic and Sub-Apostolic periods, i.e. the New Testament and the immediate historical period following afterwards. The witness of history is quite clear on this point. St. Ignatius of Antioch used the word in his letter to the Smyrnaeans around 110 A.D. Additionally, if one looks at how he used the word, the term clearly did not originate with him. He wrote as if the audience was already familiar with the term. He is the first Christian in the available record to use the term, but internal evidence suggests that he was not the first person to use it.
Second:
There is a flawed methodology in the discourse.
It is stated, “Rather than use arguments over different liturgies or teachings of councils of Catholic bishops or Protestants, what we can do is just check the Scripture to determine whether Catholicism is indeed ‘Christian.'”
Underlying this statement is the error of Sola Scriptura. This error is used in an attempt to judge the Catholic Church. To judge the Church by an error is beyond illogical, it’s offensive to Jesus Christ who promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church.
Third:
Catholic Eucharistic theology is misrepresented.
It is stated, “The Roman Catholic Church (and even some mainstream Protestant churches) teach that Jesus Christ is literally (or physically) sacrificed every time that the Catholic priest celebrates mass.”
The teaching of the Catholic Church on this matter is summarized in the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
“We therefore maintain that the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacrifice of the Cross are one and the same sacrifice. There is but one same victim, viz., Christ our Lord, who offered himself ONCE ONLY [my emphasis] in bloody sacrifice on the altar of the cross. The bloody victim of Calvary and the unbloody victim of the Mass are one and the same victim. The Mass is simply THE DAILY RENEWAL [my emphasis] of the Sacrifice of the Cross, in obedience to the Lord’s command: ‘Do this in remembrance of me’ (Lk 22:19).”
In other words, Catholics don’t believe that Jesus is literally sacrificed over and over again.
I hope these things help. I tried not to make this too personal and to keep it objective in my choice of words.
May God bless you.
Thank you for responding to my post. I’d like to start by saying that I do know what the word “catholic” means. It just means “universal.” That’s not the issue. The issue is that the Church that claims to be the “Catholic” (or Universal”) Church started, sanctioned, and supported by Jesus is going against what the Bible clearly teaches. Whether we’re talking “sola scriptura” (which is Scripture alone) or talking about the traditions of the fathers, the problem is that if we go by traditions of fathers who contradicted the Scriptures, we’re going against God. Man’s words or traditions can never supersede God’s Word and his Tradition placed in the Scripture. Even Jesus himself spoke against the Pharisees and Sadducees who also believed in Scripture and (oral) tradition. Jewish traditions included the belief in the Babylonian and Palestine Talmud, the Kabbalah, and other things depending on what rabbinical school or religious ideology they embraced.
Tradition has its place, granted. But if a tradition practiced by Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims or others who claim to believe in the God of Abraham contradict what the God of Abraham spoke to his prophets and, in particular, through Jesus and his Apostles, then such a tradition or compilation of decrees, traditions, dogmas, or pronouncements by the Council of Trent or any other ecumenical council) would be void and invalid.
And, whether Catholics admit that their priest is perform or not, the fact is the mass is a sacrifice since it’s an offering of the “literal” body of Jesus according to the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation. And any “Protestant” Church that agrees with this is just following the same error of Rome; going against the Bible, which plainly declares that his sacrifice was complete, not to be repeated, and that no daily sacrifice in the temple could or would take away sins.
God bless you to see and be saved.
@Pastor Hunter,
Concerning the term “Catholic,” my discussion on this word was not to provide a definition. It was to demonstrate that the Church that Jesus Christ established upon the Cross was already called “Catholic” around the end of the first century A.D. I never once mentioned the definition in my post. The Catholic Church as we know it today is the same Church as that founded by Jesus Christ. Nothing else needs be said.
Now, moving along, you claim that the Catholic Church is “going against what the Bible clearly teaches.” Yet, in defense of this position in your first post, you depended upon the error of Sola Scriptura (SS) to argue your point. Catholic theology of the Eucharist was also misrepresented. Your present post still does these things. I’m not sure, then, what credence I can afford to your argument. I reiterate what I said before: no Catholic can be held to the standard of SS as it is an error and insults Jesus Christ.
Using SS as a premise in a discussion with people who believe SS is an error (if not an actual heresy) does not lead to a fruitful conversation. Where’s the middle ground? I mean, would you try to convince a non-Christian that the Bible is God’s Word by telling them the Bible says it’s God’s Word?
Lastly, you state that “Tradition has its place, granted.” I’m not sure how you meant the word “tradition” here because references to “tradition” in your post are not clear. Have you read the Church’s teaching on the Apostolic Tradition? If not, I recommend that you read about its fundamentals in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You’ll find it on the Vatican’s web site:
Respectfully,
-CC
I totally agree with your post as a Catholic. There is but One God, One Faith and One Baptism. Forgiveness ALWAYS comes AFTER Transgression. To believe otherwise is a lie. So, as St. Paul states, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek (metaphor for Catholic) as both understand what Atonement is. What protestors believe is otherworldly. NOWHERE in God’s Creation, God’s Order, God’s Image or Scripture does “forgiveness come before transgression” but two places: Hell (the contradiction to God) and the mind of the Protestor.
As St. Peter said in 2Peter, those that preach misinformation will be punished. The authors of the Bible were Pharisee meaning, they were staunch supporters of oral tradition and earthly authority via Priest/Rabbi. The Sadducees were the modern day Protestors, they denied God’s earthly authorities and had ZERO influence on Jesus or the Bible. Only a psycho would believe a bunch of Pharisees who organized the Catholic Church before the Bible would suddenly go against everything in them to become a Sadducees or deny God’s earthly authority LOL.
St. Paul used Abe in Romans 4 for a reason. Abe’s Faith begins in Genesis Chapter 12, God does not decide to credit him as righteous until Chapter 15 AFTER he was obedient and performed what St. Paul labeled Works of Faith. Then God tests Abe again in 22 (meaning Free Will not Pre-Destination) which obviously means He did not consider him righteous. So, St. Paul byway of Abe was able to demonstrate it is not Works of Law (Romans 3) that gains Salvation but Works of Faith (Romans 2, Salvation rendered to each mans Works). The rest of Romans, St. Paul BURIES the one-pivot lie or the one-pivot sufficiency…..
FYI: The Flood disproves predestination. God cannot Flood the planet in 2022. Also, God cannot create a Burrito to hot for him to eat, because God can eat ALL Burritos. Before you babble on about nonsense, ask yourself, how did he first Catholics convert the polytheist, if you don’t know the answer, you do not understand God.
Hilarious coming from a guy whose religion didn’t exist until at least the sixteenth century.
The Catholic Church has many who are honest in their faith to The Lord, but are unaware of the mass deception they follow. You are a remnant of the Roman Empire. Who worshiped the sun. The Roman Empire took in the following of Christ and allowed their many tribes and communities in the land to continue their pagan worships as long as they do it in the name of Jesus. Roman Catholic Church is the true name and you as Catholics know this. You regularly practice in Idolatry and your priests are not properly punished or given responsibility for their sinful actions on certain matters that I will not dive deep on in this discussion. Finally, many of the Catholics believe the word of the pope to be equal or higher than the holy scripture left behind by the profits inspired by God. Do research on how the Catholic Church was formed and you will see plenty of books and documentaries have been made explaining step by step how Rome used Jesus’s holy name to stay alive. The Pope sitting on his throne with a crown on his head is just an emperor.
There is not such a thing “Catholic-Christians”, no way for it. Since Catholics adore Maria, you should call yourselves “Marians.” A Christian person is who adores Jesus Christ. No one can be adoring these two personages at the same time and level because one is above of the other. However, if you adore the one in lower level, then you are committing idolatry. Or you are of Jesus or Maria’s but cannot be both. Another satans’ lie.
Ummm.. excuse me.. isn’t the church in the heart of man?
Things are changing due to the internet. From the time of Jesus to the invention of the printing press, churches were at a Kindergarten level. Massive ignorance. There were few who could read and they only had a few scrolls. When the printing press was invented and books because available, the Reformation was born and EVEN Catholics admitted the Church needed reform, hence the Council of Trent. So, there was some growth, education. The churches moved to First Grade, and some made it Second Grade. But not all books remained in print or available everywhere. So, some areas grew faster than some. Many remained in ignorance still. A few made it to Third Grade and Fourth Grade. Now with the invention of the internet, individuals can grow and learn as fast as they want. Massive ignorance should not be excused or considered acceptable. All churches can now grow past the Second Grade and farther. It may be another 1000 years before the return of Jesus, maybe 5000 years, maybe 10,000 years. Meanwhile, the ignorance of the past should disappear. A lot of the old errors should disappear. There is still many false teachings in both Catholic and Protestant camps, but thanks to the internet, those errors are being exposed and will require changes sometime. The days of the ignorant shallow believer are coming to and end. Churches will expect more from each of their members in the future.
I too have heard many Catholics say, “I’m Catholic but my husband (or whoever) is Christian.” It is a terrible mistake. When I press them, they, of course, know they too are Christians but use “Christian” to mean fundy Protestant because that is how the Prots refer to themselves. Gotta stop. I tell them, “WE are the only ones that have the right to call ourselves Christians” and I teach them to say, “I am a Catholic Christian.”
Well, I’m an Eastern Orthodox with Catholic roots, and so I may not be one to speak here. However, most of this is a problem in America and not elsewhere. Not to judge my brother to put myself in danger but I’ll just say the truth. America (My country) is a vastly uneducated land. It’s sad and frankly causing of great awe and bafflement. I don’t even think American Catholics like 40+ years ago would have been so ignorant as to not know that they were Christians. Nowhere else on Earth are people so unconcerned with knowledge. Remember the verse in Sacred Scripture about people being destroyed for lack of knowledge? We Orthodox are not scholastic by nature, but Spiritual and Mystical, but we aren’t anti-knowledge either. People (even Catholics saying they weren’t Christians baffled me as a kid and frankly inflamed me with rage) I shouldn’t be wrathful though. It is the Lord who will sort things out. I’m sure that Christ cries just as he did during his passion when people plainly deny him (however inadvertently) by not knowing a thing about him, or their faith.
Catholics are the original Christian’s. Without the Catholic Church there would be no bible. Protestant’s believe Christianity started 500 years ago and they believe in self-interpretation of scripture. Truth is whatever they personally think it is.
If in one’s text, it tells you that Catholics are not Christians but are pagans, then that Church is attacking actual Christians and is preaching the wrong thing. Church is supposed to preach the gospel. In Catholicism, the gospel is preached, not slander to other denominations. We are the catholic and apostolic Church. Our traditions and beliefs are justified, and our understanding is in accordance with the Scriptures.
On the metaphorical and spiritual battlefield, facing enemies of Christianity, must I worry about the wolf in sheep’s clothing by my sides?
Roman Catholic Church didn’t even exist until the 4th century, and it has a long history of torturing and murdering Christians (sometimes for simply owning a Bible).
This is not the fruit of God’s church. Nor is Mary a co-redeemer, nor all the works Catholics are told they must do to be saved. The Bible is clear that salvation is from God, by God’s grace through faith, not by performing rituals every week or being fear mongered into believing in unbiblical lies like purgatory to sell indulgences and to go with the lie of sins not being mortal. ALL sin is mortal, the punishment for ANY and ALL sin is death, the Scripture makes this clear. Catholics have a very low view of God’s justice and a high proud view of themselves by trying to work their way into heaven by all their rituals and their vain repetitious prayers to Mary who can’t hear one Catholic on this side of the earth and another Catholic on the other side of the earth because MARY IS NOT OMNIPRESENT.
Just be honest and admit your authority is Rome, the Papacy and its tradition, and not God’s Word. Why can’t Catholics ever be honest when promoting their church? You guys are as dishonest as the atheists when they promote their faith that there is no God when you talk like this. When I argue about this stuff, I always promote the Lord Jesus Christ and God’s Word (Psalms 138:2), but you guys promote your church and are always so dishonest and disingenuous about it, or perhaps you can’t help it from all the indoctrination and lies your cult has told you were truth.
Jesus made it clear that Scripture was the authority by what he said rather than the religious leaders no matter how fancy their robes looked or what sort of genealogy argument they made about their descent from Abraham. The Scripture also states that interpretation is NOT of private interpretation, but Roman Catholicism says only their clergy’s private interpretation is correct (this is unbiblical, the Bible says the Holy Ghost will guide you into truth, not some man in a fancy robe).
This is the problem of developing a love for a religious or belief system rather than a love for the truth, you end up clinging to the belief system and compromising the truth to hold it. It doesn’t matter of God’s Word plainly says something, there’s always some Roman Catholic theologian you can cite who can argue why you can disregard God’s Word to keep to your popish traditions.